Really nice read. Islam is pretty fractured but there needs to be significant liberalization (obvious idea is not to forcefully impose strict readings on others even if that’s your thing), to have at least some separation between state and mosque, and to revert to intellectual openness as they did absorbing Byzantine knowledge. The illiberalism that dominates much of the Islamic world is multi factor. I want to ask why do so many Muslims in the west support or sympathize with Hamas but I could ask the same of many other westerners. Liberalism in the true and good sense of the word is not the natural state of man. It’s tempting to blame religion but in the absence of religion you’ll have communism, free Palestine, nature worship, and power crystals. We are a social and spiritual species. The study should really be in how liberalism can grow and how people conform to illiberalism from liberalism over time. This can happen to the most liberal society during an economic downtown, a Covid, etc.
Ha. Good reference. I don’t want to talk down to folks, but just in case someone doesn't get it:
"The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews." (see Sahih Muslim 2922)
This hadith is also cited in the founding Hamas "covenant"
Isn't it true that according to Islamic law, what is written last in the Qu'ran is considered binding? If so, the violent, Jew-hating, Jihadist parts of the Qu'ran were written after the peaceful parts and must therefore be considered part of this religion/ideology - not open to interpretation. I truly believe that Western democracies should declare Islam a "criminal ideology"
There is the concept that later verses "abrogate" earlier ones. However, this is disputed, not least because there is no consensus as to which verses are earlier/later. There's also the issue of whether verses were describing what to do at a certain point in history, vs. what to do more generally.
BTW, the ordering of the verses in the Quran as printed is not by age, but by length--from longest to shortest.
Fair enough. But while Islamic experts are arguing about this, the Jihadists are committing violence and murder against Jews, Christians, Hindus and anyone else who gets in their way: always in the name of Islam. That still makes it a "criminal ideology" in my book.
I believe that the tolerance of Jews in a society comes from the best of intent but unfortunately it also comes with a saturation point. Yes, you can join and contribute to our mozaic, our melting pot but don't you dare go too far with that. When you play the game too well, many in the population at large get jealous or find you the perfect scapegoating target and that is when the bad shit happens. I am not quoting him verbatimly but Thomas Sowell said that for Jews to avoid antisemitism they have to fail.
Somehow we need to figure out a way to make our "porridge just right" which frankly, is an impossible task.
Thankfully, we now have israel so when things get too rough there is a place for us. Also, we have special people like you Jens who support Jews and Israel. Thank you for a wonderful essay and especially for your support.
Although not strictly on point to this particular essay, it is disheartening that our many Holocaust museums, and the “Holocaust education” which they and other institutions promote, consistently fail (with rare exceptions) to emphasize one of the chief “lessons of the Holocaust;” namely, the unequivocal and eternal need for a majority-Jewish State.
Tolerance or intolerance towards Jews is all about power of the local rulers through the ages. That’s why Israel is so vital to the Jewish community. And another vital point that has become obvious due to the recent wars, the proficient use of technology equalizes everything else-no matter the size of the country.
Until Western nations decided to adopt secularism ALL OF THEM WERE CHRISTIAN STATES and a majority of their citizens still are Christian, whether practicing or not. Please do not apply moral relativism to the issue of a Jewish state. Christians were not universally persecuted for two thousand years; kicked out of their indigenous homeland of Israel and nearly exterminated in the Holocaust. However your own formerly Christian countries of Europe, the US and Canada have indeed abandoned the persecuted Christians and other minorities in Muslim countries. Lebanese Christians, Iranian Christians are not hoping the Pope will save them - they are rooting for Israel - the world's ONLY Jewish state - to do it!
And unfortunately a lot of Muslims have migrated to the West. Countries like France are full of them, sometimes making life difficult for Jews. Canada has just brought in a bunch.
Really nice read. Islam is pretty fractured but there needs to be significant liberalization (obvious idea is not to forcefully impose strict readings on others even if that’s your thing), to have at least some separation between state and mosque, and to revert to intellectual openness as they did absorbing Byzantine knowledge. The illiberalism that dominates much of the Islamic world is multi factor. I want to ask why do so many Muslims in the west support or sympathize with Hamas but I could ask the same of many other westerners. Liberalism in the true and good sense of the word is not the natural state of man. It’s tempting to blame religion but in the absence of religion you’ll have communism, free Palestine, nature worship, and power crystals. We are a social and spiritual species. The study should really be in how liberalism can grow and how people conform to illiberalism from liberalism over time. This can happen to the most liberal society during an economic downtown, a Covid, etc.
I’ll just keep planting gharkard trees in the meantime.
Ha. Good reference. I don’t want to talk down to folks, but just in case someone doesn't get it:
"The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews." (see Sahih Muslim 2922)
This hadith is also cited in the founding Hamas "covenant"
You got it Jens
Isn't it true that according to Islamic law, what is written last in the Qu'ran is considered binding? If so, the violent, Jew-hating, Jihadist parts of the Qu'ran were written after the peaceful parts and must therefore be considered part of this religion/ideology - not open to interpretation. I truly believe that Western democracies should declare Islam a "criminal ideology"
There is the concept that later verses "abrogate" earlier ones. However, this is disputed, not least because there is no consensus as to which verses are earlier/later. There's also the issue of whether verses were describing what to do at a certain point in history, vs. what to do more generally.
BTW, the ordering of the verses in the Quran as printed is not by age, but by length--from longest to shortest.
Fair enough. But while Islamic experts are arguing about this, the Jihadists are committing violence and murder against Jews, Christians, Hindus and anyone else who gets in their way: always in the name of Islam. That still makes it a "criminal ideology" in my book.
I believe that the tolerance of Jews in a society comes from the best of intent but unfortunately it also comes with a saturation point. Yes, you can join and contribute to our mozaic, our melting pot but don't you dare go too far with that. When you play the game too well, many in the population at large get jealous or find you the perfect scapegoating target and that is when the bad shit happens. I am not quoting him verbatimly but Thomas Sowell said that for Jews to avoid antisemitism they have to fail.
Somehow we need to figure out a way to make our "porridge just right" which frankly, is an impossible task.
Thankfully, we now have israel so when things get too rough there is a place for us. Also, we have special people like you Jens who support Jews and Israel. Thank you for a wonderful essay and especially for your support.
ahimsa, papa j
I think Thomas Sowell is right.
Although not strictly on point to this particular essay, it is disheartening that our many Holocaust museums, and the “Holocaust education” which they and other institutions promote, consistently fail (with rare exceptions) to emphasize one of the chief “lessons of the Holocaust;” namely, the unequivocal and eternal need for a majority-Jewish State.
Tolerance or intolerance towards Jews is all about power of the local rulers through the ages. That’s why Israel is so vital to the Jewish community. And another vital point that has become obvious due to the recent wars, the proficient use of technology equalizes everything else-no matter the size of the country.
Thank you for reflecting on the problem; it's been neglected or even ignored.
Dhimmihood is not restricted to Jews:
https://rayhorvaththesource.substack.com/p/the-jewish-media-and-dhimmihood
One doesn't have to be a Zionist to respond to Islam:
https://thestoryofmohammed.blogspot.com/
Not sure how that warrants the existence a Jewish state any more than a "Christian" state...
Until Western nations decided to adopt secularism ALL OF THEM WERE CHRISTIAN STATES and a majority of their citizens still are Christian, whether practicing or not. Please do not apply moral relativism to the issue of a Jewish state. Christians were not universally persecuted for two thousand years; kicked out of their indigenous homeland of Israel and nearly exterminated in the Holocaust. However your own formerly Christian countries of Europe, the US and Canada have indeed abandoned the persecuted Christians and other minorities in Muslim countries. Lebanese Christians, Iranian Christians are not hoping the Pope will save them - they are rooting for Israel - the world's ONLY Jewish state - to do it!
And unfortunately a lot of Muslims have migrated to the West. Countries like France are full of them, sometimes making life difficult for Jews. Canada has just brought in a bunch.
Canada is being overwhelmed with them, just like Europe.
“how quickly and repeatedly it has swung from tolerance to nasty persecution throughout history”—Is this a psychological trait?
Or perhaps fueled by d* or d**?
(*drink perhaps alcohol)
(**dependancy caused by some personal relationship issues)
Or a deprivation of success resulting in jealousy?
Your words appear to describe inclusively many people and their problems.
Isn’t alcohol banned in Islam?