A historical footnote on the continuity claim: scholars of Jewish modernity (Jacob Katz, Michael Silber, Haym Soloveitchik) generally describe ultra-Orthodoxy not as a direct continuation of pre-modern Jewish civilization but as a modern movement created in reaction to emancipation, Haskalah, and Reform. Silber's well-known essay on the subject is titled "The Emergence of Ultra-Orthodoxy: The Invention of a Tradition."
The distinction matters because traditional Jewish society wasn't traditionalist. Pre-modern Jews observed halacha as the unexamined norm of a community with real coercive authority, not as an ideological stance taken against available alternatives. Once observance became a conscious choice, and stringency a banner, as in the Chatam Sofer's repurposing of "chadash assur min haTorah," even maximal fidelity to inherited practice became something structurally new.
The postwar Haredi world departs further still. The "society of learners," in which long-term, full-time kollel study is the norm for men, has no precedent in Jewish history; pre-modern communities expected most men to work, with serious learning reserved for a small elite. And as Soloveitchik argued in "Rupture and Reconstruction," the destruction of Europe's organic communities shifted Haredi religiosity from mimetic transmission to text-driven stringency, producing practice that is in places more rigid than what it claims to continue.
None of this negates the piece's comparative point: in curriculum, liturgy, language, and communal thickness, the Haredi world is plainly closer to 18th-century Vilna or Pressburg than any other surviving option. But "closest surviving approximation, substantially reconstructed" is a different claim from "most direct continuation," and the latter largely restates the movement's own self-understanding rather than the historical record.
Not a fan of the ultra orthodox males in Israel, you were too polite, PC. Talking about the ones who sit around all day "studying", collecting welfare,don't work, don't pay taxes, don't serve in the military, attack female police, some are known to spit. I am a Netanyahu fan but if I lived there I would vote for Bennett as Netanyahu is unfortunately beholden to their vote.
May I ask, how about those who evade military draft who are NOT observant Jews/Israelis? There are MANY others who refuse to serve, maybe not because they are labeled as lazy, but for their own personal reasons and/or beliefs. Stop with the labeling of one group of extremists who we do not agree with their behavior.
This is a BS what aboutism argument I hear from a lot of Orthodox. The ultra orthodox male community there is a far bigger military evading, no working community than any other Jewish community.
May I ask, do you currently live in Israel? Either way, please do your research before making assumptions. I don’t live there, so I cannot speak for those who do. I’m simply stating that there is more to this issue than we realize. Nice catch phrase, though.
Vanessa has stated a severe issue perfectly! The burden is not being shared, and ultra orthodox men are poorly educated and an enemy to the success of the state of Israel. Welfare must cease and working, paying taxes and serving must be seen as every Israeli’s duty, desire, and obligation. The present situation is untenable.
Absurd comparison. To the extent non Haredi Jews avoid service (And its miniscule), they are breaking the law or if they leave Israel, they are breaking the social agreement of citizenship. The Haredi are exempt by law and none of them serve.
Serve in the military like everyone else and then go to work and support yourself. You are free to study the Tanach and Talmud in your free time all you want.
From henceforth all subsidies from the Central Governement for those making the personal choice to not serve in the IDF and not work will be the individuals alone. It will be up to the individual to support himself and his family. Study Torah all you want but support yourself like all human beings. If you can make it on donations alone - no problem.
Downside - Netanyahu Coalition collapses and Naftali Bennett is the PM or someone like him, and that is why nothing has happened - so far. When the Likud/Orthodox coalition is gone something like the above will be implemented. Bennett has promised this as party of his platform.
Either fight for Am Yisrael which is written in the Torah or leave the cozy welfare life with subsidized housing, subsidized day care, welfare, and everything else that Israel provides and go live in Iran or Turkey, If one can endlessly violently riot, block transportation, commit arson, serious physical assaults, attack women soldiers like in B'nai Brak, and spit on Haredi who are brave enough to join the army, one can serve in the IDF. The other choice is to imprison draft age Haredi who refuse for the same period men must serve in the IDF alongside the terrorists since they act like terrorists already, especially the Jerusalem faction. Enough is enough of living off of everyone else who are sacrificing their lives and health to protect Israel.
Look at Jewish history. Israel was lost because the Jews could never get on with each other. This will probably happen again today. Gaza attacked because it saw the Jews divided. For 5000 years the Jews have not only fought all other tribes that tried to take over Israel but they have fought with, and murdered each other. 60% of NYC Jews voted for a Muslim anti Jewish Mayor. Ancient history never excluded religious Jews from protecting Israel why should they be excluded from the army today? On the other hand, Israel is one of the most left wing countries in the world today. While so many are ultra religious to the extent of their Muslim enemies, the left wingers are promoters of LGBTQ rights and total promiscuity. Until we can understand our survival depends on supporting each other and seeing a middle road, we are on the verge of another total destruction.
My husband came from this world, so I understand it better than most. My husband, however, decided to give up his waiver and server in the military. Then he went on to study engineering and got a good job.
There are a lot of nuances in this world. For instance sometimes the children might want to do one thing and the parents might want them to take a different path. So we cannot make generalizations about an entire group of people. My husband still has a lot of family in this community. And I know many good people. While it is true that many don't serve I personally know some who do.
I appreciate how you wrote this article with a great deal of respect. And explained how we are often times quick to make assumptions about those we don't know.
Very interesting article about Israel and its internal problems. I don’t mean to sound presumptuous, but I have a suggestion to offer. Why don’t the ultra-orthodox groups seek donations from private groups and individuals instead of living on government funding? This way, Israelis feel like they have a choice to contribute or not. Those who value preserving study of the Torah can donate to the cause.
The ultra orthodox are not "living the most direct continuation of the Jewish civilization". Jewish civilization begins with the Torah. Already in the desert leaving Egypt, making their way to Israel, the Jews are commanded to form an army. Moshe counts the males for army service. There is no mention of deferment for men to study Torah. Later when the Israelites arrive in the Promised Land, their first task is to conquer it, with their army. Again, no deferment for Torah scholars. When the tribes of Reuven and Gad request permission to settle east of the Jordan, they are instructed that first they must help conquer the Land for all of Israel. In the book of Judges, Deborah has harsh words in her poem for the tribes who failed to participate in protecting the land. This is the beginning of Jewish civilization. If you want to admire the Chareidim, you will have to find another reason.
This is commentary that should be reserved for Israelis-diaspora jews, even those connected and concerned like the jews here, have little credibility rendering an opinion on this.
I am Jewish but grew up secular. I came to follow the Torah later in life.
So I understand both worlds.
I think there needs to be greater understanding between the two sides through respectful and earnest desire to converse with each other from a position of love (we are commanded to love your fellow Jew as you love yourself).
God commanded the Jewish people to follow the Torah. The Torah is about refining oneself to live a life of service to G-d. It provides us with a roadmap towards what that is. When we learn the Torah we see how kind God is and how he wants good for us and how he wants to us go out of our way to be kind to those around us, to balance our own needs with those of our family and community.
A central tenant of the Torah is to treat each other with dignity and not respect and never to cause another embarrassment.
The Torah certainly recognizes that we will at times go to war and that there are associated costs with going to war. It provides instruction for how to achieve victory and how to guard against the tolls of war.
One of the main objections from Torah observant Jews is that the military exposes people to immodesty due to mixing of the sexes that would affect one’s ability to stay on the religious path (guard their eyes and not stray after their heart). At the same time, people can strengthen themselves to overcome these temptations and there are religious units.
The Torah has precedent for maintaining modesty in relations between men and women to preserve holiness. When one refines on self and has spent time living like this he can see the difference much like one who starts to eat non processed foods feels different once he starts eating more healthfully. One who has not practiced this cannot possibly understand what it means to guard one’s eyes and ears.
There is also precedent in the Torah for Zebulun a tribe of merchants which agreed to short the tribe of Issachar who were more suited to Torah study. In this case, the merchant tribe, although more worldly, understood the value of Torah study.
Our claim to the Land of Israel itself is based in the Torah. This means we all have a duty to learn Torah. The Torah tells us to mediate in God’s laws and statutes “And these words which I command you today shall be upon your heart. You shall teach them thoroughly to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise.”
It makes sense that the military then should function according to the Torah. There may be disagreement about what that means but it should be educated and respectful based on real learning. The nations that were in the Land of Israel were expelled because they were not behaving according to God’s wishes.
Our blessing and special stature was earned because our ancestors served God. We are expected to continue to do so today. In the Torah we learn that the Jewish nation is to be a nation of priests, and set the example for the rest of the world (a light unto the nations). We are supposed to learn how to do that through Torah study. Thus, our society and our military must be based in the values of the Torah. So, both sides must, with love for our fellow Jews, educate the other side and come to create a more perfect union. Israel represents a special opportunity and a special place for Jews to live as Jews.
The Torah provides us with a guidebook for how to live as God intended the Jewish people to live. Torah values, which is fear and respect for God, must be the foundation of any discussion. We all need to learn more. The Torah has survived for thousands of years and is filled with of wisdom. It bonds us all.
We need to come towards unity and working together but with the Torah, our shared heritage, as the basis for a common language.
The ultra orthodox can and should serve in many ways: cooking, administration, serving and procuring necessary equipment or completing necessary work for soldiers while keeping their orthodoxy. As a woman, I feel men without discipline of self control have more to learn than Torah!
Hello world, you've written some beautiful thoughts. Perhaps you can help facilitate a connection between groups. I would like to see a return of men working again, as many of our great sages did. We desperately need people to step up and protect our country. Our soldiers are tried. They need rest. They can't endlessly fight. The ultra orthodox can help our nation in multiple ways. The country can't sustain this strain much longer. I pray that the leaders reject violence and talk about peace between all Jews and our nation
No it is not historically correct that the Ultra Orthodox have preserved Judasim. They as group, their philosophical approach is about 200 hundres years old begining with the Hatam Sofer. Judasim and how to observe it a been an ongoing issue since before the Talmud and the Talmud itself is proof of diffrences of opinion. Following Halacha and being Ultra Orthodox are not the same. It is more a political position today rather than a religious one. Practice and observance or lack there of has a been a constant issue among Jews forever. There is no dcoumentation that exists that will support only becasue of the Ultra Orthodox that Jews exist.Therefore their behavior has no justiifcation as they will be the only ones who carry Judasim into the future.
Vanessa, 100% correct. This arrangement is long outdated and, in my opinion, survives largely for political reasons. It is morally and ethically difficult to justify a system where one family's child serves, risks injury or death, and spends months away from home, while another family's child is exempt indefinitely.
I have nothing against Torah study. Torah has sustained the Jewish people for thousands of years. But faith and action are supposed to work together. As the old saying goes, you can pray and daven all you want, but David still had to pick up the stone and face Goliath.
A historical footnote on the continuity claim: scholars of Jewish modernity (Jacob Katz, Michael Silber, Haym Soloveitchik) generally describe ultra-Orthodoxy not as a direct continuation of pre-modern Jewish civilization but as a modern movement created in reaction to emancipation, Haskalah, and Reform. Silber's well-known essay on the subject is titled "The Emergence of Ultra-Orthodoxy: The Invention of a Tradition."
The distinction matters because traditional Jewish society wasn't traditionalist. Pre-modern Jews observed halacha as the unexamined norm of a community with real coercive authority, not as an ideological stance taken against available alternatives. Once observance became a conscious choice, and stringency a banner, as in the Chatam Sofer's repurposing of "chadash assur min haTorah," even maximal fidelity to inherited practice became something structurally new.
The postwar Haredi world departs further still. The "society of learners," in which long-term, full-time kollel study is the norm for men, has no precedent in Jewish history; pre-modern communities expected most men to work, with serious learning reserved for a small elite. And as Soloveitchik argued in "Rupture and Reconstruction," the destruction of Europe's organic communities shifted Haredi religiosity from mimetic transmission to text-driven stringency, producing practice that is in places more rigid than what it claims to continue.
None of this negates the piece's comparative point: in curriculum, liturgy, language, and communal thickness, the Haredi world is plainly closer to 18th-century Vilna or Pressburg than any other surviving option. But "closest surviving approximation, substantially reconstructed" is a different claim from "most direct continuation," and the latter largely restates the movement's own self-understanding rather than the historical record.
Thanks - I learned a lot from your post!!!
Not a fan of the ultra orthodox males in Israel, you were too polite, PC. Talking about the ones who sit around all day "studying", collecting welfare,don't work, don't pay taxes, don't serve in the military, attack female police, some are known to spit. I am a Netanyahu fan but if I lived there I would vote for Bennett as Netanyahu is unfortunately beholden to their vote.
May I ask, how about those who evade military draft who are NOT observant Jews/Israelis? There are MANY others who refuse to serve, maybe not because they are labeled as lazy, but for their own personal reasons and/or beliefs. Stop with the labeling of one group of extremists who we do not agree with their behavior.
This is a BS what aboutism argument I hear from a lot of Orthodox. The ultra orthodox male community there is a far bigger military evading, no working community than any other Jewish community.
May I ask, do you currently live in Israel? Either way, please do your research before making assumptions. I don’t live there, so I cannot speak for those who do. I’m simply stating that there is more to this issue than we realize. Nice catch phrase, though.
Vanessa has stated a severe issue perfectly! The burden is not being shared, and ultra orthodox men are poorly educated and an enemy to the success of the state of Israel. Welfare must cease and working, paying taxes and serving must be seen as every Israeli’s duty, desire, and obligation. The present situation is untenable.
Unsatisfying answer. En masse Charedim refuse to serve. Now they are rioting. It’s disgusting behavior.
Absurd comparison. To the extent non Haredi Jews avoid service (And its miniscule), they are breaking the law or if they leave Israel, they are breaking the social agreement of citizenship. The Haredi are exempt by law and none of them serve.
Sounds like all the left wing university guys in my city
Solution
Serve in the military like everyone else and then go to work and support yourself. You are free to study the Tanach and Talmud in your free time all you want.
From henceforth all subsidies from the Central Governement for those making the personal choice to not serve in the IDF and not work will be the individuals alone. It will be up to the individual to support himself and his family. Study Torah all you want but support yourself like all human beings. If you can make it on donations alone - no problem.
Downside - Netanyahu Coalition collapses and Naftali Bennett is the PM or someone like him, and that is why nothing has happened - so far. When the Likud/Orthodox coalition is gone something like the above will be implemented. Bennett has promised this as party of his platform.
Either fight for Am Yisrael which is written in the Torah or leave the cozy welfare life with subsidized housing, subsidized day care, welfare, and everything else that Israel provides and go live in Iran or Turkey, If one can endlessly violently riot, block transportation, commit arson, serious physical assaults, attack women soldiers like in B'nai Brak, and spit on Haredi who are brave enough to join the army, one can serve in the IDF. The other choice is to imprison draft age Haredi who refuse for the same period men must serve in the IDF alongside the terrorists since they act like terrorists already, especially the Jerusalem faction. Enough is enough of living off of everyone else who are sacrificing their lives and health to protect Israel.
Look at Jewish history. Israel was lost because the Jews could never get on with each other. This will probably happen again today. Gaza attacked because it saw the Jews divided. For 5000 years the Jews have not only fought all other tribes that tried to take over Israel but they have fought with, and murdered each other. 60% of NYC Jews voted for a Muslim anti Jewish Mayor. Ancient history never excluded religious Jews from protecting Israel why should they be excluded from the army today? On the other hand, Israel is one of the most left wing countries in the world today. While so many are ultra religious to the extent of their Muslim enemies, the left wingers are promoters of LGBTQ rights and total promiscuity. Until we can understand our survival depends on supporting each other and seeing a middle road, we are on the verge of another total destruction.
My husband came from this world, so I understand it better than most. My husband, however, decided to give up his waiver and server in the military. Then he went on to study engineering and got a good job.
There are a lot of nuances in this world. For instance sometimes the children might want to do one thing and the parents might want them to take a different path. So we cannot make generalizations about an entire group of people. My husband still has a lot of family in this community. And I know many good people. While it is true that many don't serve I personally know some who do.
I appreciate how you wrote this article with a great deal of respect. And explained how we are often times quick to make assumptions about those we don't know.
Very interesting article about Israel and its internal problems. I don’t mean to sound presumptuous, but I have a suggestion to offer. Why don’t the ultra-orthodox groups seek donations from private groups and individuals instead of living on government funding? This way, Israelis feel like they have a choice to contribute or not. Those who value preserving study of the Torah can donate to the cause.
The ultra orthodox are not "living the most direct continuation of the Jewish civilization". Jewish civilization begins with the Torah. Already in the desert leaving Egypt, making their way to Israel, the Jews are commanded to form an army. Moshe counts the males for army service. There is no mention of deferment for men to study Torah. Later when the Israelites arrive in the Promised Land, their first task is to conquer it, with their army. Again, no deferment for Torah scholars. When the tribes of Reuven and Gad request permission to settle east of the Jordan, they are instructed that first they must help conquer the Land for all of Israel. In the book of Judges, Deborah has harsh words in her poem for the tribes who failed to participate in protecting the land. This is the beginning of Jewish civilization. If you want to admire the Chareidim, you will have to find another reason.
This is commentary that should be reserved for Israelis-diaspora jews, even those connected and concerned like the jews here, have little credibility rendering an opinion on this.
I am Jewish but grew up secular. I came to follow the Torah later in life.
So I understand both worlds.
I think there needs to be greater understanding between the two sides through respectful and earnest desire to converse with each other from a position of love (we are commanded to love your fellow Jew as you love yourself).
God commanded the Jewish people to follow the Torah. The Torah is about refining oneself to live a life of service to G-d. It provides us with a roadmap towards what that is. When we learn the Torah we see how kind God is and how he wants good for us and how he wants to us go out of our way to be kind to those around us, to balance our own needs with those of our family and community.
A central tenant of the Torah is to treat each other with dignity and not respect and never to cause another embarrassment.
The Torah certainly recognizes that we will at times go to war and that there are associated costs with going to war. It provides instruction for how to achieve victory and how to guard against the tolls of war.
One of the main objections from Torah observant Jews is that the military exposes people to immodesty due to mixing of the sexes that would affect one’s ability to stay on the religious path (guard their eyes and not stray after their heart). At the same time, people can strengthen themselves to overcome these temptations and there are religious units.
The Torah has precedent for maintaining modesty in relations between men and women to preserve holiness. When one refines on self and has spent time living like this he can see the difference much like one who starts to eat non processed foods feels different once he starts eating more healthfully. One who has not practiced this cannot possibly understand what it means to guard one’s eyes and ears.
There is also precedent in the Torah for Zebulun a tribe of merchants which agreed to short the tribe of Issachar who were more suited to Torah study. In this case, the merchant tribe, although more worldly, understood the value of Torah study.
Our claim to the Land of Israel itself is based in the Torah. This means we all have a duty to learn Torah. The Torah tells us to mediate in God’s laws and statutes “And these words which I command you today shall be upon your heart. You shall teach them thoroughly to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise.”
It makes sense that the military then should function according to the Torah. There may be disagreement about what that means but it should be educated and respectful based on real learning. The nations that were in the Land of Israel were expelled because they were not behaving according to God’s wishes.
Our blessing and special stature was earned because our ancestors served God. We are expected to continue to do so today. In the Torah we learn that the Jewish nation is to be a nation of priests, and set the example for the rest of the world (a light unto the nations). We are supposed to learn how to do that through Torah study. Thus, our society and our military must be based in the values of the Torah. So, both sides must, with love for our fellow Jews, educate the other side and come to create a more perfect union. Israel represents a special opportunity and a special place for Jews to live as Jews.
The Torah provides us with a guidebook for how to live as God intended the Jewish people to live. Torah values, which is fear and respect for God, must be the foundation of any discussion. We all need to learn more. The Torah has survived for thousands of years and is filled with of wisdom. It bonds us all.
We need to come towards unity and working together but with the Torah, our shared heritage, as the basis for a common language.
The ultra orthodox can and should serve in many ways: cooking, administration, serving and procuring necessary equipment or completing necessary work for soldiers while keeping their orthodoxy. As a woman, I feel men without discipline of self control have more to learn than Torah!
Hello world, you've written some beautiful thoughts. Perhaps you can help facilitate a connection between groups. I would like to see a return of men working again, as many of our great sages did. We desperately need people to step up and protect our country. Our soldiers are tried. They need rest. They can't endlessly fight. The ultra orthodox can help our nation in multiple ways. The country can't sustain this strain much longer. I pray that the leaders reject violence and talk about peace between all Jews and our nation
Thank you Sally Simon. I hope I can act as a bridge. Wishing you all the very best!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and perspective. We have much to work on together.
Are the Haredi more Jewish than Joshua? He fought to create Israel. Will they not fight to sustain it?
No it is not historically correct that the Ultra Orthodox have preserved Judasim. They as group, their philosophical approach is about 200 hundres years old begining with the Hatam Sofer. Judasim and how to observe it a been an ongoing issue since before the Talmud and the Talmud itself is proof of diffrences of opinion. Following Halacha and being Ultra Orthodox are not the same. It is more a political position today rather than a religious one. Practice and observance or lack there of has a been a constant issue among Jews forever. There is no dcoumentation that exists that will support only becasue of the Ultra Orthodox that Jews exist.Therefore their behavior has no justiifcation as they will be the only ones who carry Judasim into the future.
Thank you for your clarity on this explosive situation... shabbat shalom
Vanessa, 100% correct. This arrangement is long outdated and, in my opinion, survives largely for political reasons. It is morally and ethically difficult to justify a system where one family's child serves, risks injury or death, and spends months away from home, while another family's child is exempt indefinitely.
I have nothing against Torah study. Torah has sustained the Jewish people for thousands of years. But faith and action are supposed to work together. As the old saying goes, you can pray and daven all you want, but David still had to pick up the stone and face Goliath.
You are absolutely right that this debate must happen without hatred. In fact, I beat you to the punch—I wrote an article on this very subject yesterday: https://fredericktatala.substack.com/p/the-haredi-crisis-israel-can-no-longer
Thank you for tackling an issue that many people would rather avoid.
Always extremely well written; always stating what needs to be said. Thank you!!