Not a fan of the ultra orthodox males in Israel, you were too polite, PC. Talking about the ones who sit around all day "studying", collecting welfare,don't work, don't pay taxes, don't serve in the military, attack female police, some are known to spit. I am a Netanyahu fan but if I lived there I would vote for Bennett as Netanyahu is unfortunately beholden to their vote.
May I ask, how about those who evade military draft who are NOT observant Jews/Israelis? There are MANY others who refuse to serve, maybe not because they are labeled as lazy, but for their own personal reasons and/or beliefs. Stop with the labeling of one group of extremists who we do not agree with their behavior.
This is a BS what aboutism argument I hear from a lot of Orthodox. The ultra orthodox male community there is a far bigger military evading, no working community than any other Jewish community.
May I ask, do you currently live in Israel? Either way, please do your research before making assumptions. I don’t live there, so I cannot speak for those who do. I’m simply stating that there is more to this issue than we realize. Nice catch phrase, though.
A historical footnote on the continuity claim: scholars of Jewish modernity (Jacob Katz, Michael Silber, Haym Soloveitchik) generally describe ultra-Orthodoxy not as a direct continuation of pre-modern Jewish civilization but as a modern movement created in reaction to emancipation, Haskalah, and Reform. Silber's well-known essay on the subject is titled "The Emergence of Ultra-Orthodoxy: The Invention of a Tradition."
The distinction matters because traditional Jewish society wasn't traditionalist. Pre-modern Jews observed halacha as the unexamined norm of a community with real coercive authority, not as an ideological stance taken against available alternatives. Once observance became a conscious choice, and stringency a banner, as in the Chatam Sofer's repurposing of "chadash assur min haTorah," even maximal fidelity to inherited practice became something structurally new.
The postwar Haredi world departs further still. The "society of learners," in which long-term, full-time kollel study is the norm for men, has no precedent in Jewish history; pre-modern communities expected most men to work, with serious learning reserved for a small elite. And as Soloveitchik argued in "Rupture and Reconstruction," the destruction of Europe's organic communities shifted Haredi religiosity from mimetic transmission to text-driven stringency, producing practice that is in places more rigid than what it claims to continue.
None of this negates the piece's comparative point: in curriculum, liturgy, language, and communal thickness, the Haredi world is plainly closer to 18th-century Vilna or Pressburg than any other surviving option. But "closest surviving approximation, substantially reconstructed" is a different claim from "most direct continuation," and the latter largely restates the movement's own self-understanding rather than the historical record.
Very interesting article about Israel and its internal problems. I don’t mean to sound presumptuous, but I have a suggestion to offer. Why don’t the ultra-orthodox groups seek donations from private groups and individuals instead of living on government funding? This way, Israelis feel like they have a choice to contribute or not. Those who value preserving study of the Torah can donate to the cause.
Serve in the military like everyone else and then go to work and support yourself. You are free to study the Tanach and Talmud in your free time all you want.
From henceforth all subsidies from the Central Governement for those making the personal choice to not serve in the IDF and not work will be the individuals alone. It will be up to the individual to support himself and his family. Study Torah all you want but support yourself like all human beings. If you can make it on donations alone - no problem.
Downside - Netanyahu Coalition collapses and Naftali Bennett is the PM or someone like him, and that is why nothing has happened - so far. When the Likud/Orthodox coalition is gone something like the above will be implemented. Bennett has promised this as party of his platform.
I am Jewish but grew up secular. I came to follow the Torah later in life.
So I understand both worlds.
I think there needs to be greater understanding between the two sides through respectful and earnest desire to converse with each other from a position of love (we are commanded to love your fellow Jew as you love yourself).
God commanded the Jewish people to follow the Torah. The Torah is about refining oneself to live a life of service to G-d. It provides us with a roadmap towards what that is. When we learn the Torah we see how kind God is and how he wants good for us and how he wants to us go out of our way to be kind to those around us, to balance our own needs with those of our family and community.
A central tenant of the Torah is to treat each other with dignity and not respect and never to cause another embarrassment.
The Torah certainly recognizes that we will at times go to war and that there are associated costs with going to war. It provides instruction for how to achieve victory and how to guard against the tolls of war.
One of the main objections from Torah observant Jews is that the military exposes people to immodesty due to mixing of the sexes that would affect one’s ability to stay on the religious path (guard their eyes and not stray after their heart). At the same time, people can strengthen themselves to overcome these temptations and there are religious units.
The Torah has precedent for maintaining modesty in relations between men and women to preserve holiness. When one refines on self and has spent time living like this he can see the difference much like one who starts to eat non processed foods feels different once he starts eating more healthfully. One who has not practiced this cannot possibly understand what it means to guard one’s eyes and ears.
There is also precedent in the Torah for Zebulun a tribe of merchants which agreed to short the tribe of Issachar who were more suited to Torah study. In this case, the merchant tribe, although more worldly, understood the value of Torah study.
Our claim to the Land of Israel itself is based in the Torah. This means we all have a duty to learn Torah. The Torah tells us to mediate in God’s laws and statutes “And these words which I command you today shall be upon your heart. You shall teach them thoroughly to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise.”
It makes sense that the military then should function according to the Torah. There may be disagreement about what that means but it should be educated and respectful based on real learning. The nations that were in the Land of Israel were expelled because they were not behaving according to God’s wishes.
Our blessing and special stature was earned because our ancestors served God. We are expected to continue to do so today. In the Torah we learn that the Jewish nation is to be a nation of priests, and set the example for the rest of the world (a light unto the nations). We are supposed to learn how to do that through Torah study. Thus, our society and our military must be based in the values of the Torah. So, both sides must, with love for our fellow Jews, educate the other side and come to create a more perfect union. Israel represents a special opportunity and a special place for Jews to live as Jews.
The Torah provides us with a guidebook for how to live as God intended the Jewish people to live. Torah values, which is fear and respect for God, must be the foundation of any discussion. We all need to learn more. The Torah has survived for thousands of years and is filled with of wisdom. It bonds us all.
We need to come towards unity and working together but with the Torah, our shared heritage, as the basis for a common language.
Im on the verge of declaring myself an antisemite. I am so disgusted with the majority of Jews in the world today yet I understand I am first and foremost a Jew. I have no other identity. I have lived in Europe Israel and the US but I know the world only accepts me as a Jew. Where do we go from here?
Look at Jewish history. Israel was lost because the Jews could never get on with each other. This will probably happen again today. Gaza attacked because it saw the Jews divided. For 5000 years the Jews have not only fought all other tribes that tried to take over Israel but they have fought with, and murdered each other. 60% of NYC Jews voted for a Muslim anti Jewish Mayor. Ancient history never excluded religious Jews from protecting Israel why should they be excluded from the army today? On the other hand, Israel is one of the most left wing countries in the world today. While so many are ultra religious to the extent of their Muslim enemies, the left wingers are promoters of LGBTQ rights and total promiscuity. Until we can understand our survival depends on supporting each other and seeing a middle road, we are on the verge of another total destruction.
Either fight for Am Yisrael which is written in the Torah or leave the cozy welfare life with subsidized housing, subsidized day care, welfare, and everything else that Israel provides and go live in Iran or Turkey, If one can endlessly violently riot, block transportation, commit arson, serious physical assaults, attack women soldiers like in B'nai Brak, and spit on Haredi who are brave enough to join the army, one can serve in the IDF. The other choice is to imprison draft age Haredi who refuse for the same period men must serve in the IDF alongside the terrorists since they act like terrorists already, especially the Jerusalem faction. Enough is enough of living off of everyone else who are sacrificing their lives and health to protect Israel.
Not a fan of the ultra orthodox males in Israel, you were too polite, PC. Talking about the ones who sit around all day "studying", collecting welfare,don't work, don't pay taxes, don't serve in the military, attack female police, some are known to spit. I am a Netanyahu fan but if I lived there I would vote for Bennett as Netanyahu is unfortunately beholden to their vote.
May I ask, how about those who evade military draft who are NOT observant Jews/Israelis? There are MANY others who refuse to serve, maybe not because they are labeled as lazy, but for their own personal reasons and/or beliefs. Stop with the labeling of one group of extremists who we do not agree with their behavior.
This is a BS what aboutism argument I hear from a lot of Orthodox. The ultra orthodox male community there is a far bigger military evading, no working community than any other Jewish community.
May I ask, do you currently live in Israel? Either way, please do your research before making assumptions. I don’t live there, so I cannot speak for those who do. I’m simply stating that there is more to this issue than we realize. Nice catch phrase, though.
A historical footnote on the continuity claim: scholars of Jewish modernity (Jacob Katz, Michael Silber, Haym Soloveitchik) generally describe ultra-Orthodoxy not as a direct continuation of pre-modern Jewish civilization but as a modern movement created in reaction to emancipation, Haskalah, and Reform. Silber's well-known essay on the subject is titled "The Emergence of Ultra-Orthodoxy: The Invention of a Tradition."
The distinction matters because traditional Jewish society wasn't traditionalist. Pre-modern Jews observed halacha as the unexamined norm of a community with real coercive authority, not as an ideological stance taken against available alternatives. Once observance became a conscious choice, and stringency a banner, as in the Chatam Sofer's repurposing of "chadash assur min haTorah," even maximal fidelity to inherited practice became something structurally new.
The postwar Haredi world departs further still. The "society of learners," in which long-term, full-time kollel study is the norm for men, has no precedent in Jewish history; pre-modern communities expected most men to work, with serious learning reserved for a small elite. And as Soloveitchik argued in "Rupture and Reconstruction," the destruction of Europe's organic communities shifted Haredi religiosity from mimetic transmission to text-driven stringency, producing practice that is in places more rigid than what it claims to continue.
None of this negates the piece's comparative point: in curriculum, liturgy, language, and communal thickness, the Haredi world is plainly closer to 18th-century Vilna or Pressburg than any other surviving option. But "closest surviving approximation, substantially reconstructed" is a different claim from "most direct continuation," and the latter largely restates the movement's own self-understanding rather than the historical record.
Very interesting article about Israel and its internal problems. I don’t mean to sound presumptuous, but I have a suggestion to offer. Why don’t the ultra-orthodox groups seek donations from private groups and individuals instead of living on government funding? This way, Israelis feel like they have a choice to contribute or not. Those who value preserving study of the Torah can donate to the cause.
Solution
Serve in the military like everyone else and then go to work and support yourself. You are free to study the Tanach and Talmud in your free time all you want.
From henceforth all subsidies from the Central Governement for those making the personal choice to not serve in the IDF and not work will be the individuals alone. It will be up to the individual to support himself and his family. Study Torah all you want but support yourself like all human beings. If you can make it on donations alone - no problem.
Downside - Netanyahu Coalition collapses and Naftali Bennett is the PM or someone like him, and that is why nothing has happened - so far. When the Likud/Orthodox coalition is gone something like the above will be implemented. Bennett has promised this as party of his platform.
I am Jewish but grew up secular. I came to follow the Torah later in life.
So I understand both worlds.
I think there needs to be greater understanding between the two sides through respectful and earnest desire to converse with each other from a position of love (we are commanded to love your fellow Jew as you love yourself).
God commanded the Jewish people to follow the Torah. The Torah is about refining oneself to live a life of service to G-d. It provides us with a roadmap towards what that is. When we learn the Torah we see how kind God is and how he wants good for us and how he wants to us go out of our way to be kind to those around us, to balance our own needs with those of our family and community.
A central tenant of the Torah is to treat each other with dignity and not respect and never to cause another embarrassment.
The Torah certainly recognizes that we will at times go to war and that there are associated costs with going to war. It provides instruction for how to achieve victory and how to guard against the tolls of war.
One of the main objections from Torah observant Jews is that the military exposes people to immodesty due to mixing of the sexes that would affect one’s ability to stay on the religious path (guard their eyes and not stray after their heart). At the same time, people can strengthen themselves to overcome these temptations and there are religious units.
The Torah has precedent for maintaining modesty in relations between men and women to preserve holiness. When one refines on self and has spent time living like this he can see the difference much like one who starts to eat non processed foods feels different once he starts eating more healthfully. One who has not practiced this cannot possibly understand what it means to guard one’s eyes and ears.
There is also precedent in the Torah for Zebulun a tribe of merchants which agreed to short the tribe of Issachar who were more suited to Torah study. In this case, the merchant tribe, although more worldly, understood the value of Torah study.
Our claim to the Land of Israel itself is based in the Torah. This means we all have a duty to learn Torah. The Torah tells us to mediate in God’s laws and statutes “And these words which I command you today shall be upon your heart. You shall teach them thoroughly to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise.”
It makes sense that the military then should function according to the Torah. There may be disagreement about what that means but it should be educated and respectful based on real learning. The nations that were in the Land of Israel were expelled because they were not behaving according to God’s wishes.
Our blessing and special stature was earned because our ancestors served God. We are expected to continue to do so today. In the Torah we learn that the Jewish nation is to be a nation of priests, and set the example for the rest of the world (a light unto the nations). We are supposed to learn how to do that through Torah study. Thus, our society and our military must be based in the values of the Torah. So, both sides must, with love for our fellow Jews, educate the other side and come to create a more perfect union. Israel represents a special opportunity and a special place for Jews to live as Jews.
The Torah provides us with a guidebook for how to live as God intended the Jewish people to live. Torah values, which is fear and respect for God, must be the foundation of any discussion. We all need to learn more. The Torah has survived for thousands of years and is filled with of wisdom. It bonds us all.
We need to come towards unity and working together but with the Torah, our shared heritage, as the basis for a common language.
Im on the verge of declaring myself an antisemite. I am so disgusted with the majority of Jews in the world today yet I understand I am first and foremost a Jew. I have no other identity. I have lived in Europe Israel and the US but I know the world only accepts me as a Jew. Where do we go from here?
Look at Jewish history. Israel was lost because the Jews could never get on with each other. This will probably happen again today. Gaza attacked because it saw the Jews divided. For 5000 years the Jews have not only fought all other tribes that tried to take over Israel but they have fought with, and murdered each other. 60% of NYC Jews voted for a Muslim anti Jewish Mayor. Ancient history never excluded religious Jews from protecting Israel why should they be excluded from the army today? On the other hand, Israel is one of the most left wing countries in the world today. While so many are ultra religious to the extent of their Muslim enemies, the left wingers are promoters of LGBTQ rights and total promiscuity. Until we can understand our survival depends on supporting each other and seeing a middle road, we are on the verge of another total destruction.
Either fight for Am Yisrael which is written in the Torah or leave the cozy welfare life with subsidized housing, subsidized day care, welfare, and everything else that Israel provides and go live in Iran or Turkey, If one can endlessly violently riot, block transportation, commit arson, serious physical assaults, attack women soldiers like in B'nai Brak, and spit on Haredi who are brave enough to join the army, one can serve in the IDF. The other choice is to imprison draft age Haredi who refuse for the same period men must serve in the IDF alongside the terrorists since they act like terrorists already, especially the Jerusalem faction. Enough is enough of living off of everyone else who are sacrificing their lives and health to protect Israel.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and perspective. We have much to work on together.