A military's goal should not be to win a theoretical contest of virtue. It should be to win the war it is forced to fight — as humanely as possible but, ultimately, as decisively as necessary.
Yaalon is not wrong about Ben Gvir and Smotrich. But to blood libel the entire IDF because he detests some ministers and Bibi is lashon hara. Shame on him. He has no right to even call himself a patriot at this point. He could have made his remarks merely about the politics and left the army out of it. But he chose to deride every soldier fighting for Israel's survival and given fodder to every antisemite on the planet. What a narcissistic tool.
And as far as Israel being the most moral army in the world... The US as well follows the rules of war and has a military code of conduct. Israel is no more moral or immoral than the US armed forces. Perhaps what supporters of Israel need to do is emphasize that Israel follows the same rules as the US military and that should be the end of it.
Stop putting Israel on a level that human beings will never actually be able to meet. That is self-defeating and ridiculous.
Israel is always held to a higher standard than any other country. One that it can never attain. The same goes for the Jewish people. It’s a no win situation.
A moral army is fighting an immoral army. An enemy that uses its own women and children as shields and who openly calls for the killing of all Jews and the destruction of Israel.
And we are trying to justify what we are doing? We could blow up Gaza to complete rubble in one day and end the war but we don't. Yet there are those that claim we are committing genocide.
By now, there is no need to keep justifying what we are doing.
Give a person a gun ask him to go fight a war, seeing the sights of war, wounded comrade mutilated bodies blood and guts fear all around, who wouldn't become dehumanised, but no reports of beheading women and children have been made prisoners have been captured and not killed, how many IDF have been captured and not killed always it's the IDF yet the biggest crimes have been committed by Hamas and still go on yet this is overlooked and ignored
It’s good to highlight the ideals that the IDF follows, but it’s equally good to highlight that in light of the real battles that the IDF fights to protect the State of Israel and its people, what is also needed is a pragmatic look at the realities of war and peace.
when you have Jon Stewart and John Oliver weighing in on Israel's perfidy......and B Sanders backed by the likes of Ocasio Cortez and Josh Ossoff of Georgia calling for ending military aid to Israel....it's only icing on the cake to have Olmert , Ehud Barak, or one or another former heads of Shin bet, Mossad, or IDF go on Israel TV or better yet the BBC to tell the audience how horrible Israel is. How immoral....43K dead mostly women and children ....that's the accepted wisdom of hamas health ministry.....Yes...the IDF is moral.....it does what it can...at risk and the death of its own soldiers....and too many of them...now nearing 400 young...mostly men...dead at the start of their lives....while Breaking the Silence escorts around Ta Nehesi Coates so he can write his book and get major coverage and cover of NY Magazine. I used to get Vanity Fair for some Hollywood scuttlebut I enjoyed until its new editor saw fit to include "GEN GAZA" another pre Oct. 7th screed how Israel is starving the young people of Gaza of food and of "their dreams" But resolute...they willl not be destroyed....thy will never give up....so writes the award winning Italian journalist. Hurrah. so I canceled...what else can I do? write on this blog.
War is war, ugly, dangerous and horrible to both sides. But let us compare October 7th and the many years preceding that horrific date. I won't go all the way back to 1948, or even further back. The fact that for all the years of Gaza, 2005, the non Jewish residents alive and dead were removed, many forcilbly by Israeli police, etc. The Arab Gazan finally had a mini state, with hot houses, etc., but that wasn't enough. So the destroyed the infrastucture, and voted in a "government" giving Hamas the role of governing the area. Since they destroyed so many of the building that could have provided some of the needs, Egypt and Israel sent truckloads of food, medical supplies into the area day and after. None of the other Arab nations contributed these items, but that was not enough. So the thanks given to Israel was by rockets, firebombs sent into Sderot, a city close to the border. Did they fight the army, no, they were happy to kill children, destroy homes, and businesses, etc. Then Egypt was not happy with the incursion of these Arabs into Egypt and they stopped their trucks immediately. Israel didn't. They continued until October 8th when all trucks stopped doing the humanitarian duty, realizing this was WAR. Did Israel just start bombing Gaza, no, they sent messages to the Arabs to take shelter, but the only shelter they could take would have been the tunnels that Hamas found funds to develop, but the civilians of Gaza were not allowed to take shelter, in fact, there has been proof of people being killed by Hamas for trying to flee to a safer area. Reason? Hamas loves casualities, especially civilian casualities, and the higher the number, the more sympathy they receive for the bleeding hearts all over the war. What other army sends warning to the civilians? When they entered Gaza, it was Israeli medics who were helpful to wounded civilians, much to the consternation of the International Red Cross, who were more concerned with casualty figures not with saving lives. So IDF is not the most moral army, but war is not a moral act, and as to humanitarian care, the IDF is not fighting humans, who care about life. They love death more than life and are proud of it. The world is upside down, and the support for area is the sign of a sick society that is pervading the souls of billions of people. Instead of standing tall for the only democratic state in the mideast, they think the are supporting the Arabs, poor downtrodden Arabs who were given 4 time to make a State, and refused 4 times. Notice, I refuse to call them "Palestinians" as all those who lived in that land prior to the Declaration of the State of Israel, were all Palestinians, Jews, Muslim, Christians, Druze, etc. To call them by that name is ridiculous as there is no "p" in Arabic, so it is pronounced Falestine, a Roman pun, referring back to Philistines. No army is completely moral, because no war is moral. The IDF is probably the most humane army on the face of the earth, because Jews, and Israelis love life. Am Ysrael Chai! BRING THEM HOME NOW!
nobody knows how things are going to pan out, unless one understands how to integrate our Cultural Threads via Torah, Tanach, Zohar etc. But.... just pondering... IF things go according to proscribed schedule... it could be an interesting test case asap in late January to provide a one-way ticket series beginning with Khalidi as mentioned in the Martin Kramer essay link you have provided.
Why should we accept that the deaths of Gazan civilians is immoral? First, they're all "civilians " because there are NO Gazan or Hamas uniformed services. Second, as Hamas is the internationally recognized government of Gaza, it was Gaza that was responsible for the atrocities of Oct 7. Gaza committed an act of war on Oct 7 and is now at war with Israel. If Israel were to scrape Gaza into the sea, it would be just. However terrible war is, justice is far more so (in the ancient sense of the word).
Gaza's buildings were reduced to rubble to prevent them being used as Vantage points for Hamas snipers to fire upon Israel's Army. The Civilians in them were sad but inevitable casualties of this. The West's Armies did exactly the same in Mosul and Fallujah in Iraq during the wars there too. That is War. Neither War was of Israel's or The West's choosing. Threaten us, we respond with massive and complete force to get the War won. And stay won.
Very well stated. Similarly I'm tired of my fellow yids promoting Israel's incredible achievements in medicine, science and the arts as a means of defending her from attacks.
Sure it's ok to promote one achievements but not within any framework of denying the claims of being apartheid, an occupier, an organ stealer, murderer or any other number of bogus accusations. I find that doing so lends a note of credence to such accusations.
Except that all those accusations are false. I agree that continuing to try to persuade the world that Israel’s inventions & achievements are futile bc hate is hate is not going anywhere. Since they hate us anyway it seems to me we should just take of business to defend ourselves & not worry about what we are thought of. Maybe Golda Meir’s guote will someday be accepted.
“ Maybe the day will come when they love their children more than they hate us”.
Yaalon is not wrong about Ben Gvir and Smotrich. But to blood libel the entire IDF because he detests some ministers and Bibi is lashon hara. Shame on him. He has no right to even call himself a patriot at this point. He could have made his remarks merely about the politics and left the army out of it. But he chose to deride every soldier fighting for Israel's survival and given fodder to every antisemite on the planet. What a narcissistic tool.
And as far as Israel being the most moral army in the world... The US as well follows the rules of war and has a military code of conduct. Israel is no more moral or immoral than the US armed forces. Perhaps what supporters of Israel need to do is emphasize that Israel follows the same rules as the US military and that should be the end of it.
Stop putting Israel on a level that human beings will never actually be able to meet. That is self-defeating and ridiculous.
Israel is always held to a higher standard than any other country. One that it can never attain. The same goes for the Jewish people. It’s a no win situation.
It is one thing for a world to hold Israel and the Jewish people to a higher level, it is quite another for Israel to go along with it.
A moral army is fighting an immoral army. An enemy that uses its own women and children as shields and who openly calls for the killing of all Jews and the destruction of Israel.
And we are trying to justify what we are doing? We could blow up Gaza to complete rubble in one day and end the war but we don't. Yet there are those that claim we are committing genocide.
By now, there is no need to keep justifying what we are doing.
papa j
Excellent piece. I agree wjth every word.
Give a person a gun ask him to go fight a war, seeing the sights of war, wounded comrade mutilated bodies blood and guts fear all around, who wouldn't become dehumanised, but no reports of beheading women and children have been made prisoners have been captured and not killed, how many IDF have been captured and not killed always it's the IDF yet the biggest crimes have been committed by Hamas and still go on yet this is overlooked and ignored
It’s good to highlight the ideals that the IDF follows, but it’s equally good to highlight that in light of the real battles that the IDF fights to protect the State of Israel and its people, what is also needed is a pragmatic look at the realities of war and peace.
Don’t fuck with Israel.
Issues avoided.
I’m not sure what I love more - the beauty f your writing or the truth you tell. I suppose there’s no need to choose.
when you have Jon Stewart and John Oliver weighing in on Israel's perfidy......and B Sanders backed by the likes of Ocasio Cortez and Josh Ossoff of Georgia calling for ending military aid to Israel....it's only icing on the cake to have Olmert , Ehud Barak, or one or another former heads of Shin bet, Mossad, or IDF go on Israel TV or better yet the BBC to tell the audience how horrible Israel is. How immoral....43K dead mostly women and children ....that's the accepted wisdom of hamas health ministry.....Yes...the IDF is moral.....it does what it can...at risk and the death of its own soldiers....and too many of them...now nearing 400 young...mostly men...dead at the start of their lives....while Breaking the Silence escorts around Ta Nehesi Coates so he can write his book and get major coverage and cover of NY Magazine. I used to get Vanity Fair for some Hollywood scuttlebut I enjoyed until its new editor saw fit to include "GEN GAZA" another pre Oct. 7th screed how Israel is starving the young people of Gaza of food and of "their dreams" But resolute...they willl not be destroyed....thy will never give up....so writes the award winning Italian journalist. Hurrah. so I canceled...what else can I do? write on this blog.
The most moral war is the one never started (I’m speaking to you, Mohammad occultists).
War is war, ugly, dangerous and horrible to both sides. But let us compare October 7th and the many years preceding that horrific date. I won't go all the way back to 1948, or even further back. The fact that for all the years of Gaza, 2005, the non Jewish residents alive and dead were removed, many forcilbly by Israeli police, etc. The Arab Gazan finally had a mini state, with hot houses, etc., but that wasn't enough. So the destroyed the infrastucture, and voted in a "government" giving Hamas the role of governing the area. Since they destroyed so many of the building that could have provided some of the needs, Egypt and Israel sent truckloads of food, medical supplies into the area day and after. None of the other Arab nations contributed these items, but that was not enough. So the thanks given to Israel was by rockets, firebombs sent into Sderot, a city close to the border. Did they fight the army, no, they were happy to kill children, destroy homes, and businesses, etc. Then Egypt was not happy with the incursion of these Arabs into Egypt and they stopped their trucks immediately. Israel didn't. They continued until October 8th when all trucks stopped doing the humanitarian duty, realizing this was WAR. Did Israel just start bombing Gaza, no, they sent messages to the Arabs to take shelter, but the only shelter they could take would have been the tunnels that Hamas found funds to develop, but the civilians of Gaza were not allowed to take shelter, in fact, there has been proof of people being killed by Hamas for trying to flee to a safer area. Reason? Hamas loves casualities, especially civilian casualities, and the higher the number, the more sympathy they receive for the bleeding hearts all over the war. What other army sends warning to the civilians? When they entered Gaza, it was Israeli medics who were helpful to wounded civilians, much to the consternation of the International Red Cross, who were more concerned with casualty figures not with saving lives. So IDF is not the most moral army, but war is not a moral act, and as to humanitarian care, the IDF is not fighting humans, who care about life. They love death more than life and are proud of it. The world is upside down, and the support for area is the sign of a sick society that is pervading the souls of billions of people. Instead of standing tall for the only democratic state in the mideast, they think the are supporting the Arabs, poor downtrodden Arabs who were given 4 time to make a State, and refused 4 times. Notice, I refuse to call them "Palestinians" as all those who lived in that land prior to the Declaration of the State of Israel, were all Palestinians, Jews, Muslim, Christians, Druze, etc. To call them by that name is ridiculous as there is no "p" in Arabic, so it is pronounced Falestine, a Roman pun, referring back to Philistines. No army is completely moral, because no war is moral. The IDF is probably the most humane army on the face of the earth, because Jews, and Israelis love life. Am Ysrael Chai! BRING THEM HOME NOW!
Yahalon is a defeatist who would trade Hamas members for hostages
“All civilian lives are equal, not so the many ways of taking them.”*
*(Judge at Nuremberg trials articulating the moral distinction between Natzi atrocities and of deaths of civilians during Allied Bombings )
https://martinkramer.org/2023/10/26/nazi_case_for_hamas/
Thanks for the link!
nobody knows how things are going to pan out, unless one understands how to integrate our Cultural Threads via Torah, Tanach, Zohar etc. But.... just pondering... IF things go according to proscribed schedule... it could be an interesting test case asap in late January to provide a one-way ticket series beginning with Khalidi as mentioned in the Martin Kramer essay link you have provided.
Why should we accept that the deaths of Gazan civilians is immoral? First, they're all "civilians " because there are NO Gazan or Hamas uniformed services. Second, as Hamas is the internationally recognized government of Gaza, it was Gaza that was responsible for the atrocities of Oct 7. Gaza committed an act of war on Oct 7 and is now at war with Israel. If Israel were to scrape Gaza into the sea, it would be just. However terrible war is, justice is far more so (in the ancient sense of the word).
Thank you Joshua!!! Excellent clarifications and well articulated!!
Gaza's buildings were reduced to rubble to prevent them being used as Vantage points for Hamas snipers to fire upon Israel's Army. The Civilians in them were sad but inevitable casualties of this. The West's Armies did exactly the same in Mosul and Fallujah in Iraq during the wars there too. That is War. Neither War was of Israel's or The West's choosing. Threaten us, we respond with massive and complete force to get the War won. And stay won.
Very well stated. Similarly I'm tired of my fellow yids promoting Israel's incredible achievements in medicine, science and the arts as a means of defending her from attacks.
Sure it's ok to promote one achievements but not within any framework of denying the claims of being apartheid, an occupier, an organ stealer, murderer or any other number of bogus accusations. I find that doing so lends a note of credence to such accusations.
https://leonupsidedown.blogspot.com
Except that all those accusations are false. I agree that continuing to try to persuade the world that Israel’s inventions & achievements are futile bc hate is hate is not going anywhere. Since they hate us anyway it seems to me we should just take of business to defend ourselves & not worry about what we are thought of. Maybe Golda Meir’s guote will someday be accepted.
“ Maybe the day will come when they love their children more than they hate us”.
Thanks, opened link and read your 'Ugh Canada' essay regarding the Trudeau's, plus a bit.