I haven't examined Scott Atran's writings on the topic although after 9/11 when I was writing about the psychology of terrorism, I did come across some of his work and recall the "coffee shop bonding" point you raised. This is symptomatic of a wider trend in social psychology and related disciplines to promote the "banality of evil" theory which was first coined by Hannah Arendt in her trial report on Eichmann in Jerusalem. However, in the social sciences, it was most effectively popularized by Stanley Milgram who extrapolated from his obedience studies to the Holocaust and other acts of collective violence and, subsequently, by Phil Zimbardo who conducted the so-called Stanford Prison Experiment. The "lesson" these psychologists wished to convey is that people are good but they do bad things when they find themselves in bad situations, an instance of the central theme of social psychology: the power of the situation relative to one's personality. [More on this perhaps later, but a day of work first.]
There can be more than one reason motivating people; the more reasons there are, the more difficult it is to change them. So, perhaps the belief in Paradise and the male bonding work hand in hand.
How right you are! And this was in fact obvious within the experiments I referred to as well. Most, if not all, complex social phenomena are multi-causal in nature. It's just the theorist whose theoretical preconceptions lead to the articulation of unicausal accounts. Unicausality, like Ralph Waldo Emerson's foolish consistency, is another hobgoblin of simple (or biased) minds!
It seems to this 71-year-old retired anesthesiologist, a former clinical practitioner, and not a scientist in any true sense of the word, that behavioral motivation and causation are clearly multifactorial. It is only the useful tool of reductive study of single components, allowing us to understand components and underlying processes, that misleads us to trying to attribute single factors as etiology. This doesn’t work well, even in anesthesiology, where multiple dysfunctions in several different complex organ systems will feed into your patient’s problems and responses to anesthesia. How much more complicated is the mentation of the human mind? Mixed together kinship ties, intellectual understandings or misunderstandings, life experiences of love or brutality, religious, fervor or ideologic fervor… OMG.
The only thing I disagree with is that there is a distinction between islam and islamism or that the majority of muslims are peaceful. I think that islamism is a term invented by westerners because they don't want to be seen as condemning islam or muslims. Therefore, they created a phony distinction. Islam at its core is a violent, imperialistic political/religious ideology. It certainly is true that leftists have a moral black hole.
This is exactly correct. Years ago, the left adopted a view that was, at its core, anti-American exceptionalism; the belief that all cultures are equal and that you cannot elevate one above the other.
I also take umbrage with the author's assertion that there are billions of peaceful Muslims. First, there are only 1.8 billion Muslims worldwide. Second, there are, within that population, concentric circles of support for jihadism. Imagine that 1% of Muslims would actively engage in jihad. Surrounding them are 10% of Muslims who wouldn't actively engage or blow themselves up, but they would actively assist the 1% who would. Around that 10% circle are 33% of Muslims who might give money but not actively help. They might post something online. And so on.
Yes, I'm sure there are some peaceful Muslims, but they may be living in a solely Muslim community that doesn't bump into the non-Muslim world. Or maybe their voices are silenced by the violent ones. Well, America fought a civil war to end slavery and people were willing to die for their belief, with no guarantee of paradise. Where are these Muslims? They are so brave when they are murdering babies or unarmed non-adherents at a dance festival. Where is their bravery to fight against the violent members of their society? Yes, there are a few, but far too few.
I have been surprised to find that I was really quite clueless about something that I thought I understood. The depth of immersion into the belief system that motivates Islamist martyrs is quite literally beyond the ability of most Westerners to imagine. It’s deeply disturbing to realize that Islamist “holy warriors” reside so far outside the borders of our own common sense of reality. There’s clearly not room for any compromise within this worldview.
Anyone who thinks it’s simply a matter of improving the jihadist’s standard of living or educational opportunities just doesn’t get it. Until will figure out some way to thwart this, we need to build barriers that deny them any opportunity to become shahids at our expense.
💯 It is too different of a society for most of us to understand sitting in the West. Also, they are indoctrinating their children to hate from birth which means that much of what they believe is so deeply seeded, they probably don’t even understand themselves why they believe it.
When I read articles such as this, I am reminded of a quote by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, A man who knew a little something of the subject. He said, "The history of failure in war can almost be summed up in two words: 'Too late'. 'Too late' in comprehending the deadly purpose of a potential enemy; 'too late' in realizing the mortal danger; 'too late' in preparedness; 'too late' in uniting all possible forces for resistance; 'too late' in standing with one's friends". October 7th has proven the first three. Let us not make the mistake of also proving the last two. There is still time. Some folks will never come around but there are many who will. They just need encouragement.
I agree with most of what is said here, except regarding our leaving of Afghanistan. You can't change people unless you are willing to take control of everything - media, education, politics - and 20 - 30 years and the resources to completely re-educate, as was done in Germany. But Germany was at least European. I don't know if it's possible in a place like Afghanistan. And frankly, it's their problem.
HASHEM ALMIGHTY has the control of everything everywhere all the time. These are the “ End of Days “ in the Torah and Kabbalah. HASHEM is uniting Jews with very hard and difficult ways. The Third Temple and the Kingdom of Israel ( Davidic Dynasty) are eternal and Sanhedrin is also in the Third Temple on Mount Moriah . HASHEM destroy soon all the evil and also Satan himself away forever to eternity. The final peace comes when Shechinah is dwelling in the Third Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem Very Soon Baruch HaShem 🙌🙏🔥🇮🇱✡️❤️✡️🇮🇱IT IS ALL ABOUT JERUSALEM AND MOUNT MORIAH 🙌🙏🔥🇮🇱✡️❤️✡️🇮🇱🙌🙏🔥
Islam leads back to Islamist ideology. It's a long-term trend. Or a cycle, if you prefer.
At this point, it's quite clear. This is not to say that all Muslims end up as fanatics. That would be untrue. What is means is that if you believe in the Koran and Hadith, you tend to end up a fanatic. The reason is the content.
As long as Arabs value death more than life Jihad means that we will see more attacks and not fewer that were the products of that warped philosophy
I haven't examined Scott Atran's writings on the topic although after 9/11 when I was writing about the psychology of terrorism, I did come across some of his work and recall the "coffee shop bonding" point you raised. This is symptomatic of a wider trend in social psychology and related disciplines to promote the "banality of evil" theory which was first coined by Hannah Arendt in her trial report on Eichmann in Jerusalem. However, in the social sciences, it was most effectively popularized by Stanley Milgram who extrapolated from his obedience studies to the Holocaust and other acts of collective violence and, subsequently, by Phil Zimbardo who conducted the so-called Stanford Prison Experiment. The "lesson" these psychologists wished to convey is that people are good but they do bad things when they find themselves in bad situations, an instance of the central theme of social psychology: the power of the situation relative to one's personality. [More on this perhaps later, but a day of work first.]
There can be more than one reason motivating people; the more reasons there are, the more difficult it is to change them. So, perhaps the belief in Paradise and the male bonding work hand in hand.
How right you are! And this was in fact obvious within the experiments I referred to as well. Most, if not all, complex social phenomena are multi-causal in nature. It's just the theorist whose theoretical preconceptions lead to the articulation of unicausal accounts. Unicausality, like Ralph Waldo Emerson's foolish consistency, is another hobgoblin of simple (or biased) minds!
Well it just seems logical, especially if we examine our own motivations.
It seems to this 71-year-old retired anesthesiologist, a former clinical practitioner, and not a scientist in any true sense of the word, that behavioral motivation and causation are clearly multifactorial. It is only the useful tool of reductive study of single components, allowing us to understand components and underlying processes, that misleads us to trying to attribute single factors as etiology. This doesn’t work well, even in anesthesiology, where multiple dysfunctions in several different complex organ systems will feed into your patient’s problems and responses to anesthesia. How much more complicated is the mentation of the human mind? Mixed together kinship ties, intellectual understandings or misunderstandings, life experiences of love or brutality, religious, fervor or ideologic fervor… OMG.
exactly right.
Scratch a progressive and you will find an America-hating, Jew-hating anti-Semite.
I heard someone once say, scratch the surface of a marxist and you'll find a nazi. So-called progressives are marxists.
The only thing I disagree with is that there is a distinction between islam and islamism or that the majority of muslims are peaceful. I think that islamism is a term invented by westerners because they don't want to be seen as condemning islam or muslims. Therefore, they created a phony distinction. Islam at its core is a violent, imperialistic political/religious ideology. It certainly is true that leftists have a moral black hole.
This is exactly correct. Years ago, the left adopted a view that was, at its core, anti-American exceptionalism; the belief that all cultures are equal and that you cannot elevate one above the other.
I also take umbrage with the author's assertion that there are billions of peaceful Muslims. First, there are only 1.8 billion Muslims worldwide. Second, there are, within that population, concentric circles of support for jihadism. Imagine that 1% of Muslims would actively engage in jihad. Surrounding them are 10% of Muslims who wouldn't actively engage or blow themselves up, but they would actively assist the 1% who would. Around that 10% circle are 33% of Muslims who might give money but not actively help. They might post something online. And so on.
Yes, I'm sure there are some peaceful Muslims, but they may be living in a solely Muslim community that doesn't bump into the non-Muslim world. Or maybe their voices are silenced by the violent ones. Well, America fought a civil war to end slavery and people were willing to die for their belief, with no guarantee of paradise. Where are these Muslims? They are so brave when they are murdering babies or unarmed non-adherents at a dance festival. Where is their bravery to fight against the violent members of their society? Yes, there are a few, but far too few.
I like this. I like this.
I have been surprised to find that I was really quite clueless about something that I thought I understood. The depth of immersion into the belief system that motivates Islamist martyrs is quite literally beyond the ability of most Westerners to imagine. It’s deeply disturbing to realize that Islamist “holy warriors” reside so far outside the borders of our own common sense of reality. There’s clearly not room for any compromise within this worldview.
Anyone who thinks it’s simply a matter of improving the jihadist’s standard of living or educational opportunities just doesn’t get it. Until will figure out some way to thwart this, we need to build barriers that deny them any opportunity to become shahids at our expense.
Absolutely! No more Muslims should be allowed in to the United States. Period. And Europe should do the same. It's absurd what is happening.
The 9/11 jihadis weren’t uneducated. One of them was an engineer. Can’t recall the others but none were uneducated.
💯 It is too different of a society for most of us to understand sitting in the West. Also, they are indoctrinating their children to hate from birth which means that much of what they believe is so deeply seeded, they probably don’t even understand themselves why they believe it.
When I read articles such as this, I am reminded of a quote by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, A man who knew a little something of the subject. He said, "The history of failure in war can almost be summed up in two words: 'Too late'. 'Too late' in comprehending the deadly purpose of a potential enemy; 'too late' in realizing the mortal danger; 'too late' in preparedness; 'too late' in uniting all possible forces for resistance; 'too late' in standing with one's friends". October 7th has proven the first three. Let us not make the mistake of also proving the last two. There is still time. Some folks will never come around but there are many who will. They just need encouragement.
I agree with most of what is said here, except regarding our leaving of Afghanistan. You can't change people unless you are willing to take control of everything - media, education, politics - and 20 - 30 years and the resources to completely re-educate, as was done in Germany. But Germany was at least European. I don't know if it's possible in a place like Afghanistan. And frankly, it's their problem.
You’d need to have some authority who would stop the jihadis.
HASHEM ALMIGHTY has the control of everything everywhere all the time. These are the “ End of Days “ in the Torah and Kabbalah. HASHEM is uniting Jews with very hard and difficult ways. The Third Temple and the Kingdom of Israel ( Davidic Dynasty) are eternal and Sanhedrin is also in the Third Temple on Mount Moriah . HASHEM destroy soon all the evil and also Satan himself away forever to eternity. The final peace comes when Shechinah is dwelling in the Third Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem Very Soon Baruch HaShem 🙌🙏🔥🇮🇱✡️❤️✡️🇮🇱IT IS ALL ABOUT JERUSALEM AND MOUNT MORIAH 🙌🙏🔥🇮🇱✡️❤️✡️🇮🇱🙌🙏🔥
Islam leads back to Islamist ideology. It's a long-term trend. Or a cycle, if you prefer.
At this point, it's quite clear. This is not to say that all Muslims end up as fanatics. That would be untrue. What is means is that if you believe in the Koran and Hadith, you tend to end up a fanatic. The reason is the content.
This is a brilliant article.