Thank you Joshua, insightful and very-very important narrative! Knowing Israel in depth, first hand, as child-immigrant in 1960, student from elementary to MSc (Technion), soldier, high-tech incubator’s MD and entrepreneur, I second all you highlight. Loving it is not in doubt, as in my neighborhood, among my mates, all atheists like me, born in Eastern Europe (which means a generation of baby boomers whose parents had to survive the Holocaust to procreate), we dubbed it the “Only Land”! But since 1982, I have returned to Diaspora, first for a prestigious PhD (MIT), then family reasons, and most recently, since about 2020, losing my faith in Israel and Israelis being capable — humane and insightful enough — to bring peace to this land. But since 7/Oct/2023, I realized that engineering peace alone is infeasible, that we do need a partner who is ready to at least reconsider the feasibility, if not the humanity, of their unequivocal goal to exterminate us; this partner is non-existent. Until this partner evolves into existence, we have to persevere and slog it out for several generations, until they realize that attempts to exterminate us are futile.
I think that just "persevering" and "slogging it out" will be futile. What Israel desperately needs is a vision for itself that is solidly "Jewish" - in the spiritual, moral and nationalistic sense - a vision where friendly non-Jews are welcome but do not threaten to turn Israel into just another Western multicultural nation that lost its traditions and its way. I also think that Israel must take control of its own security by developing and manufacturing the necessary defense systems. This decades-long overdependence on the US (or any country) for its survival is a recipe for disaster.
Obviously, I disagree, as this is NOT my credo and not my upbringing — I’m an atheist, and from my father, the Holocaust survivor, I took to heart his belief that Jews are not very different from other nations/tribes, capable of anything bad and good. He actually specifically prescribed: 1/ time to forget, and stop repeating the Holocaust narrative, as it accomplishes the opposite of what is intended — instead of repulsion and empathy, the reactions are between a) if that has been to them, they must have deserved it (e.g., Dahl’s antisemitism); and b) it could be done, maybe we could do better than Hitler. 2/ inspire of losing most family members to the Nazis, I prefer to be on the side of the victims, not the murderers, as the latter should be carrying the Cain’s curse.
And to point a “technical” (accounting) flaw in your prescriptions: first you write how expensive Israel is (per your late husband), while 5 minutes earlier you want Israeli to carry its own defense expenses, without America bankrolling it since forever! Not feasible without reducing the share of individual consumption of the GDP to a developing country in Asia or South America. Jews don’t want to sacrifice this much for defense!
I’m in Albert Koeman’s camp, which is also the Founding Fathers’ Camp — Israel as regular nation, where Jews maintaining a majority by constitutional design and control of immigration. It was David Ben Gurion, who said that Israel should be a normal country, with its own criminals and prostitutes (see footnote below). Carrying on our backs the Jewish exceptionalism, without the abundant resources of North American, controlled by epidemiologically weak population, and being formed when slavery is unacceptable is a burden too heavy!
Footnote: https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-715554: “Ben-Gurion’s vision of Zionism was the creation of a state for the Jewish people to bring about the normalization of the Jews. His normalization means having a country like any other, a great aspiration at the time, considering the urgency to restore the Jewish people to sovereignty in the Land of Israel. His roundly criticized quote suggested that a sign of normalcy would be that the State of Israel had criminals and streetwalkers just as every other country in the world.”
Bankrolling defense is a topic unto itself. I see no relationship between my observations about Israel being an expensive place to live and what must be done to raise funds for defense. As for your other remarks, I see Israel as being inextricably linked with our spiritual connection with the Almighty and our religious traditions regardless of what non-religious notions that people like Herzl or Ben-Gurion had. You, as an atheist, don't. I am curious. Without belief in G-d or our religious traditions what is the point of even identifying yourself as Jewish? Why even take an interest in Israel?
First of all, I love your articles and look forward to reading them. I have some comments on this one. I made Aliyah in the late 90s with my then-now ex- husband and our two young children. We lasted two years. Our failure was due largely to lack of preparation and a stars-in—our eyes assumption that everything would work out. One thing I did not expect was the disparity between Anglo olim who enjoyed financial support from parents and those, like us, who did not. It’s hard to be idealistic when your neighbors are building new kitchens and adding bathrooms to their large homes when you are struggling. Today my two step sons have successfully made Aliyah since 2009. But they would not enjoy the lives they have without the dollars my husband and I as well as in laws provide. Unlike decades past there are some enormously wealthy Israelis but many who are decidedly not and the disparity is not only between the traditional classes.
On some other points- chareidi people who live in poverty generally don’t work and if they do it’s in low paying jobs because they don’t seek out training. That’s on them.
On some of your points Israel faces some unique challenges. Israel has always had to maintain its survival amid a hostile population committed to its destruction. After the war of independence the threat was from within as well as from without. So martial law at that time was probably sensible. Im sure mistakes were made because Israelis are human. I have more to say but this is already too long.
There are literaly dozens of millions of people around the world presenting Israel as a genocidal, apartheid, fascist and even worse state. People romanticizing Israel are for the most part also fully aware of the shadowy sides you mention. If they don't talk about it, or not so much, it's just to compensate this out-of-proportion hatred against Israel.
Actually in most of my conversations about Israel with non-Israelis who overly romanticize, they are completely unaware of much of what I wrote, but sure, many are aware. And I don’t give much credence to the propagandists.
This article should be required reading for anyone considering making aliya. I would add that Americans, who tend to be strong individualists, might not realize how communitarian Israel is. Israel is also very child centered and family focused and might not be a good fit for childless couples and singles.
Good article, Josh. Lots to think about. I think people tend also to overlook that it's very expensive to live in Israel. I've never been there but my late husband visited in the late 1990s because his father had died - and told me he didn't recognize the place since he left in the late 1960s. For one thing, the cost of living was through the roof, he said. He and I discussed moving to Israel but realized that we could not sustain the same lifestyle there as we had in Canada. He came to Canada for economic reasons in the first place, along with the fact that his mom and brother moved here. We had no relatives or contacts in Israel. I don't speak much Hebrew. My career as a freelance writer/consultant serving high-end US and Canadian clients would likely have ended with such a move. Still, we always supported Israel in our prayers and through charitable donations. I don't think it's overly "romantic" to live in the Diaspora while feeling that Israel is one's true homeland. The one place where you can live as a Jew fully. Where Jews run the show instead of always having to defer to gentiles. Which is why I will always support policies that protect Israel as a Jewish state, not just another Western multicultural country that lost its traditions and its way.
A sympathetic and nuanced view on the real Israel. The over-romanticism isn't very helpful in the effort to normalize the country on the world - stage.
During centuries, exceptionalism has been a lifebuoy , but Zionism is finally completed when Israel is just another rule of law country which happens to have a Jewish majority.
Becoming a member of NATO and the EU, that sort of thing.
Susan Hirshorn replied to your comment on The Over-Romanticism of Israel.
Bankrolling defense is a topic unto itself. I see no relationship between my observations about Israel being an expensive place to live and what must be done to raise funds for defense. As for your other remarks, there is no point in furthering our discussion because we come at things from vastly different perspectives. I see Israel as being inextricably linked with our spiritual connection with the Almighty and our religious traditions regardless of what non-religious notions that people like Herzl or Ben-Gurion had. You, as an atheist, don't. I am curious. Without belief in G-d or our religious traditions what is the point of even identifying yourself as Jewish? Why even take an interest in Israel?
Susan,
My response to her:
To your question about my interest in Israel, my answer is simple and very Jewish in nature: it’s about doing not believing in abstractions! Christians and Muslims are commanded to believe in God, Jesus, Muhammad, but even religious Jews are NOT, they just have to follow rules of conduct.
I lived in Israel for 22 years (I assumed you read my brief bio, but just in case you missed it, repeating), I know its geography, a lot of it on foot and by hitchhiking. I don’t need any superpowers or imaginary friends to connect to it, and to its history, and to how this history intertwines with my personal history. Three of my grandparents, 1 step grandmother, both my parents, some classmates, teachers and friends are buried there, with the latter being casualties of war.
I belong to this tribe with my DNA. I enjoyed the accounts of the Old Testament, written by ancient wise men, whose DNA I share, as they were Jewish too. I don’t need more evidence, I trust my parents bringing me to the right place for me at the right time. They didn’t need any superpowers either.
You think you understand the financing of military technology, but you stumbled on an expert — moi, Oscar Hauptman!
You are thinking OPEX, the accounting of variable costs of military hardware. You are oblivious of the CAPEX — the R&D that had to precede each and every item manufactured and delivered.
So, the defense budget of Israel is based on variable expenses of the Americans, already subsidized and discounted.
Imagine that RFAEL and Israel Air Industry had to develop from scratch F-4, F-15, F-16, F-35, their munitions, spare parts, etc. Then recalculate the full costs. Clear?
Oscar, I appreciate your response. I do not think that an atheist could relate to your reasoning on Israel. As a believer in Yahweh and the Messiah, Jesus Christ, I have read the scriptures and have seen the promises made to Abraham's seed come to fruition. Yahweh's promises will not fail.
I do NOT appreciate your response, as you are engaged in irrelevant abstractions, while for me and my people — Israeli-Jews — it’s a matter of life or death!
The logic is simple: When your belief system is taken to its extreme “letter of the Old Testament”, one’s male children are dancing and singing, while burning Israeli flags, one collaborates with PLO and Hamas (photos of their leaders meeting Arafat are plenty), while undermining the IDF. I assume you know that photos of such behaviors are widely available, with the perpetrators wearing medieval attires from Germany and France. They also neither ready to sacrifice their lives as soldiers of the IDF, nor ready to break a sweat in any paid labor — they just, presumably, study the Bible, the despicable parasites!
Their reasoning is indelicate yours and is simple: Jewish-Israeli people should do nothing to settle and defend its ancestral lands as God would take care of it anyway, when she decides it’s the right time, but the action of people undermines God’s plans of 2nd coming and salvation.
So if you are supporting this “strategy”, you are my enemy, same as the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who want all the people I love and am related to, to die out pronto! Stay out of Israeli space, you are a danger to our survival!
Oscar-Joshua Hauptman, son of Abraham Last-Hauptman and Tova Farber-Krechevski
One of your better articles my friend. My daughter lives in Israel, both my wife and daughter are Israeli citizens, and I visit Israel often. While we love Israel, I guarantee we have no romantic ideas about the place. However, they do have the best mini-schnitzels and hummous in the world!
If we examine other countries around the world, we will find most of them have their own version of the political, socio-economic, cultural problems Israel is facing.
We should also note that a collectivity that has a 3,000+ history is going to be more than a religion, a nationality, or a culture. More than likely an amalgam of all of them to varying degrees at varying times and places.
When it comes to. "Zionism," we need to distinguish between its essential meaning and it political expression. Definitionally, it means the right of Jews to self determination in their ancestral homeland. How that is socially and politically expressed — socialist, communist, capitalist, religion based — is entirely another matter. One of the main goals of the relentless propaganda war being currently waged against us is to so demonize the term "Zionism" so that Jews will reject it, thus undermining their support for Israel, allowing its enemies to more easily march in and take over.
Thank you Joshua, insightful and very-very important narrative! Knowing Israel in depth, first hand, as child-immigrant in 1960, student from elementary to MSc (Technion), soldier, high-tech incubator’s MD and entrepreneur, I second all you highlight. Loving it is not in doubt, as in my neighborhood, among my mates, all atheists like me, born in Eastern Europe (which means a generation of baby boomers whose parents had to survive the Holocaust to procreate), we dubbed it the “Only Land”! But since 1982, I have returned to Diaspora, first for a prestigious PhD (MIT), then family reasons, and most recently, since about 2020, losing my faith in Israel and Israelis being capable — humane and insightful enough — to bring peace to this land. But since 7/Oct/2023, I realized that engineering peace alone is infeasible, that we do need a partner who is ready to at least reconsider the feasibility, if not the humanity, of their unequivocal goal to exterminate us; this partner is non-existent. Until this partner evolves into existence, we have to persevere and slog it out for several generations, until they realize that attempts to exterminate us are futile.
I think that just "persevering" and "slogging it out" will be futile. What Israel desperately needs is a vision for itself that is solidly "Jewish" - in the spiritual, moral and nationalistic sense - a vision where friendly non-Jews are welcome but do not threaten to turn Israel into just another Western multicultural nation that lost its traditions and its way. I also think that Israel must take control of its own security by developing and manufacturing the necessary defense systems. This decades-long overdependence on the US (or any country) for its survival is a recipe for disaster.
Thank Susan!
Obviously, I disagree, as this is NOT my credo and not my upbringing — I’m an atheist, and from my father, the Holocaust survivor, I took to heart his belief that Jews are not very different from other nations/tribes, capable of anything bad and good. He actually specifically prescribed: 1/ time to forget, and stop repeating the Holocaust narrative, as it accomplishes the opposite of what is intended — instead of repulsion and empathy, the reactions are between a) if that has been to them, they must have deserved it (e.g., Dahl’s antisemitism); and b) it could be done, maybe we could do better than Hitler. 2/ inspire of losing most family members to the Nazis, I prefer to be on the side of the victims, not the murderers, as the latter should be carrying the Cain’s curse.
And to point a “technical” (accounting) flaw in your prescriptions: first you write how expensive Israel is (per your late husband), while 5 minutes earlier you want Israeli to carry its own defense expenses, without America bankrolling it since forever! Not feasible without reducing the share of individual consumption of the GDP to a developing country in Asia or South America. Jews don’t want to sacrifice this much for defense!
I’m in Albert Koeman’s camp, which is also the Founding Fathers’ Camp — Israel as regular nation, where Jews maintaining a majority by constitutional design and control of immigration. It was David Ben Gurion, who said that Israel should be a normal country, with its own criminals and prostitutes (see footnote below). Carrying on our backs the Jewish exceptionalism, without the abundant resources of North American, controlled by epidemiologically weak population, and being formed when slavery is unacceptable is a burden too heavy!
Footnote: https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-715554: “Ben-Gurion’s vision of Zionism was the creation of a state for the Jewish people to bring about the normalization of the Jews. His normalization means having a country like any other, a great aspiration at the time, considering the urgency to restore the Jewish people to sovereignty in the Land of Israel. His roundly criticized quote suggested that a sign of normalcy would be that the State of Israel had criminals and streetwalkers just as every other country in the world.”
Bankrolling defense is a topic unto itself. I see no relationship between my observations about Israel being an expensive place to live and what must be done to raise funds for defense. As for your other remarks, I see Israel as being inextricably linked with our spiritual connection with the Almighty and our religious traditions regardless of what non-religious notions that people like Herzl or Ben-Gurion had. You, as an atheist, don't. I am curious. Without belief in G-d or our religious traditions what is the point of even identifying yourself as Jewish? Why even take an interest in Israel?
First of all, I love your articles and look forward to reading them. I have some comments on this one. I made Aliyah in the late 90s with my then-now ex- husband and our two young children. We lasted two years. Our failure was due largely to lack of preparation and a stars-in—our eyes assumption that everything would work out. One thing I did not expect was the disparity between Anglo olim who enjoyed financial support from parents and those, like us, who did not. It’s hard to be idealistic when your neighbors are building new kitchens and adding bathrooms to their large homes when you are struggling. Today my two step sons have successfully made Aliyah since 2009. But they would not enjoy the lives they have without the dollars my husband and I as well as in laws provide. Unlike decades past there are some enormously wealthy Israelis but many who are decidedly not and the disparity is not only between the traditional classes.
On some other points- chareidi people who live in poverty generally don’t work and if they do it’s in low paying jobs because they don’t seek out training. That’s on them.
On some of your points Israel faces some unique challenges. Israel has always had to maintain its survival amid a hostile population committed to its destruction. After the war of independence the threat was from within as well as from without. So martial law at that time was probably sensible. Im sure mistakes were made because Israelis are human. I have more to say but this is already too long.
Great points!!
There are literaly dozens of millions of people around the world presenting Israel as a genocidal, apartheid, fascist and even worse state. People romanticizing Israel are for the most part also fully aware of the shadowy sides you mention. If they don't talk about it, or not so much, it's just to compensate this out-of-proportion hatred against Israel.
Actually in most of my conversations about Israel with non-Israelis who overly romanticize, they are completely unaware of much of what I wrote, but sure, many are aware. And I don’t give much credence to the propagandists.
Could be yes. Around me people tend to be either completely indifferent to Israel (which is 100% fine for me) or very hostile to it (not fine)
Indifferent is indeed preferable, haha.
This article should be required reading for anyone considering making aliya. I would add that Americans, who tend to be strong individualists, might not realize how communitarian Israel is. Israel is also very child centered and family focused and might not be a good fit for childless couples and singles.
Good article, Josh. Lots to think about. I think people tend also to overlook that it's very expensive to live in Israel. I've never been there but my late husband visited in the late 1990s because his father had died - and told me he didn't recognize the place since he left in the late 1960s. For one thing, the cost of living was through the roof, he said. He and I discussed moving to Israel but realized that we could not sustain the same lifestyle there as we had in Canada. He came to Canada for economic reasons in the first place, along with the fact that his mom and brother moved here. We had no relatives or contacts in Israel. I don't speak much Hebrew. My career as a freelance writer/consultant serving high-end US and Canadian clients would likely have ended with such a move. Still, we always supported Israel in our prayers and through charitable donations. I don't think it's overly "romantic" to live in the Diaspora while feeling that Israel is one's true homeland. The one place where you can live as a Jew fully. Where Jews run the show instead of always having to defer to gentiles. Which is why I will always support policies that protect Israel as a Jewish state, not just another Western multicultural country that lost its traditions and its way.
Josh, Danielle might benefit from reading your article--or not.
Sounds like your date was not the right person for you;-)
Thank you Jacqueline, hoping Joshua will find a lovely young woman out there. ❤️
A sympathetic and nuanced view on the real Israel. The over-romanticism isn't very helpful in the effort to normalize the country on the world - stage.
During centuries, exceptionalism has been a lifebuoy , but Zionism is finally completed when Israel is just another rule of law country which happens to have a Jewish majority.
Becoming a member of NATO and the EU, that sort of thing.
Susan Hirshorn replied to your comment on The Over-Romanticism of Israel.
Bankrolling defense is a topic unto itself. I see no relationship between my observations about Israel being an expensive place to live and what must be done to raise funds for defense. As for your other remarks, there is no point in furthering our discussion because we come at things from vastly different perspectives. I see Israel as being inextricably linked with our spiritual connection with the Almighty and our religious traditions regardless of what non-religious notions that people like Herzl or Ben-Gurion had. You, as an atheist, don't. I am curious. Without belief in G-d or our religious traditions what is the point of even identifying yourself as Jewish? Why even take an interest in Israel?
Susan,
My response to her:
To your question about my interest in Israel, my answer is simple and very Jewish in nature: it’s about doing not believing in abstractions! Christians and Muslims are commanded to believe in God, Jesus, Muhammad, but even religious Jews are NOT, they just have to follow rules of conduct.
I lived in Israel for 22 years (I assumed you read my brief bio, but just in case you missed it, repeating), I know its geography, a lot of it on foot and by hitchhiking. I don’t need any superpowers or imaginary friends to connect to it, and to its history, and to how this history intertwines with my personal history. Three of my grandparents, 1 step grandmother, both my parents, some classmates, teachers and friends are buried there, with the latter being casualties of war.
I belong to this tribe with my DNA. I enjoyed the accounts of the Old Testament, written by ancient wise men, whose DNA I share, as they were Jewish too. I don’t need more evidence, I trust my parents bringing me to the right place for me at the right time. They didn’t need any superpowers either.
What else is there?
Oscar
This is not true. Israel is not an expensive place to live because of defense. That’s a few percentage points of the overall budget.
Joshua,
You think you understand the financing of military technology, but you stumbled on an expert — moi, Oscar Hauptman!
You are thinking OPEX, the accounting of variable costs of military hardware. You are oblivious of the CAPEX — the R&D that had to precede each and every item manufactured and delivered.
So, the defense budget of Israel is based on variable expenses of the Americans, already subsidized and discounted.
Imagine that RFAEL and Israel Air Industry had to develop from scratch F-4, F-15, F-16, F-35, their munitions, spare parts, etc. Then recalculate the full costs. Clear?
Thanks for taking this seriously, in depth!
Oscar
I’m not disputing any of that. All I’m saying is that’s not why things in Israel are expensive.
Oscar, I appreciate your response. I do not think that an atheist could relate to your reasoning on Israel. As a believer in Yahweh and the Messiah, Jesus Christ, I have read the scriptures and have seen the promises made to Abraham's seed come to fruition. Yahweh's promises will not fail.
Leona,
I do NOT appreciate your response, as you are engaged in irrelevant abstractions, while for me and my people — Israeli-Jews — it’s a matter of life or death!
The logic is simple: When your belief system is taken to its extreme “letter of the Old Testament”, one’s male children are dancing and singing, while burning Israeli flags, one collaborates with PLO and Hamas (photos of their leaders meeting Arafat are plenty), while undermining the IDF. I assume you know that photos of such behaviors are widely available, with the perpetrators wearing medieval attires from Germany and France. They also neither ready to sacrifice their lives as soldiers of the IDF, nor ready to break a sweat in any paid labor — they just, presumably, study the Bible, the despicable parasites!
Their reasoning is indelicate yours and is simple: Jewish-Israeli people should do nothing to settle and defend its ancestral lands as God would take care of it anyway, when she decides it’s the right time, but the action of people undermines God’s plans of 2nd coming and salvation.
So if you are supporting this “strategy”, you are my enemy, same as the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who want all the people I love and am related to, to die out pronto! Stay out of Israeli space, you are a danger to our survival!
Oscar-Joshua Hauptman, son of Abraham Last-Hauptman and Tova Farber-Krechevski
One of your better articles my friend. My daughter lives in Israel, both my wife and daughter are Israeli citizens, and I visit Israel often. While we love Israel, I guarantee we have no romantic ideas about the place. However, they do have the best mini-schnitzels and hummous in the world!
If we examine other countries around the world, we will find most of them have their own version of the political, socio-economic, cultural problems Israel is facing.
We should also note that a collectivity that has a 3,000+ history is going to be more than a religion, a nationality, or a culture. More than likely an amalgam of all of them to varying degrees at varying times and places.
When it comes to. "Zionism," we need to distinguish between its essential meaning and it political expression. Definitionally, it means the right of Jews to self determination in their ancestral homeland. How that is socially and politically expressed — socialist, communist, capitalist, religion based — is entirely another matter. One of the main goals of the relentless propaganda war being currently waged against us is to so demonize the term "Zionism" so that Jews will reject it, thus undermining their support for Israel, allowing its enemies to more easily march in and take over.