A better way to achieve peace, which is what the Geneva Conventions and United Nations were supposedly set up to do, is to focus not on “proportionality” but on deterrence.
Another great essay. I hate pleas for "proportionality" because they're so intellectually dishonest, and to argue against this seemingly reasonable demand, you have to take the time, as you so eloquently have, to systematically expose its dishonesty. Which only works if anyone is listening.
My husband (who is not Jewish) joked recently that to ensure proportionality, Israel should fire exactly 181 ballistic missiles at military targets in Iran. He said that to really be proportional, we should aim for civilian targets but Israel is really interested in the military targets so that would do. Would that shut up the international call for proportionality? Of course not because our missiles would actually hit their targets.
Yesterday my rabbi's Rosh Hashanah sermon was about his discomfort with the ethical issues surrounding Jewish power. The subterfuge of the pager operation bothers him. He talked about the howls on the Internet about sneaky Jews. The wealthy Jews who threatened to pull their endowments unless colleges addressed their pro-Hamas ground forces bother him. He talked about the howls on the Internet about Jewish money. He is worried that if Jews use power, the world will hate them and things will get more dangerous for us.
And he also made the point that if Jews don't use their power, the world will simply wipe us out. He came to the ethical conclusion that there is no right answer.
He reminded me of Dara Horn's book, _People Love Dead Jews_, which Eylon Levy prefers to call, _People Love Jews Dead_. I remember the international calls for Jewish extermination on October 8, before Israel lifted a finger against Hamas. We looked weak then and excuse me, the world did not love us. A year later I hear all kinds of reports that they did, that for a whole week we had the world's sympathy. No we didn't. I was there. You were there. Everyone reading this was there. The world buzzed with people saying, "What can you expect, the Israelis deserved it."
When bad things happen specifically to Israelis and generally to Jews, the world either celebrates or makes an effort to politely hide its satisfaction.
When Jews look weak, the world moves in for the kill. When Jews look strong, the world howls in outrage.
Calls for "proportionality" are only polite requests to roll over and die. And you make that point.
I've really had it with the hypocrisy. Golda Meir nailed it: "If we have to have a choice between being dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we'd rather be alive and have the bad image."
Bravo. How does a decent army proportionately respond to the Oct. 7 massacre of sleeping families on a holy day…or a people who came up w suicide vests on their kids sent into civilian communities. Carry on IDF, Bibi…awaiting news of the next proportionate pager caper.
What you don't know is that we are a very small Jewish community in a rural area where everyone has guns, and the rabbi's children are pretty much alone and tormented by both students and teachers in the high school, and from time to time people in our general area have gone nuts, picking off passersby with deer rifles. He is right to worry for them, and he doesn't make anywhere near enough to ship them out of here to a private school.
Yeah. Not only the students but also the teachers are against Israel and against Jews, and the administration won't do anything about it. Sort of like in most American colleges.
The pager strategy was brilliant. Just a shame the explosions weren’t a bit bigger. Israel is lambasted (incorrectly) for ‘indiscriminate’ bombing. How much more ‘discriminate’ can you get than personalised detonations?
In general we have to stop worrying about what everyone thinks of us. It’s a lose lose as you are all pointing out. What is ethical is self-preservation. Period. Whatever that takes.
Reform? Reconstructionist ? Jews are the only people for whom power is a dirty word. Jews who hold pseudo mock Seders with Jews as the villains Jews saying Kaddish for dead Palestinians. They celebrate and we mourn not for our people. For them. Sickness of the Jews. I’m still a member of Democrat party and thoroughly disgusted. I’ve lived as Safe American through all of Israel wars since 67. Not counting 56. As I was a small child
He’s not like that. He’s hardcore Zionist and behind Israel all the way. He just is very conscious that power corrupts and he wants us to be very careful to be moral and mindful with our power. I see nothing wrong with that.
Who are you writing this for? Maybe you need to it to the Nantucket Ladies Auxiliary Gentile Club? The UN, Geneva Convention, and any other international organization are irrelevant when the stated objective is to finish the complete annihilation of every living Jew. There will not be another Holocaust. .
If we want to be intellectually honest, then let us just say that the "world", as represented by the U.N. and the hateful yappers that surround the Jews, does not give a rat's behind about the Jews. Regardless of Israel's response to aggression against it, the response from the "world" will be continued hate. I just read Shelah Horvitz's comment about the conflictions and discomfort that seem to inflict her Rabbi. I am happy to say that my Chabad Rabbi has no such conflict. Indeed, yesterday he listed his desired wishes for the New Year. Afterwards I called out to him, "You forgot one. What is that", he asked. I answered, "Victory!" He replied, "Yes, total victory." Now is the time to smite Amalek once and for all.
I have already explained how The Far Left become tools of The Far Right in The State. All British International appointments made at intermediate and upper levels to these international organisations become subject to the interests of Far-Right Five and Six here in The United Kingdom. They are surrounded Electronically and then The Nazis (who are the absolute worst perverted fucking scum I can assure you) in these Agencies then work them, like puppets. There is Massive Anti-Semitic interest in then selling these AntiSemitic Assets, who are then played in Matches, for Cash and Money Market Positions, to the Arabs and Far Eastern clients. This is how, and why, these organisations are infiltrated by The Nazis.
Maybe, just maybe they are beginning to realize the meaning of FAFO, Bibi’s policy post October 7. It’s a new day. I hope he has something equally satisfying and innovative in the works for October 7th 2024 as a reminder.
It doesn’t matter what the definition of proportionality is. It only matters what the US President’s definition means it to be. Until Israel figures out a way to cut the need for US weapons it is the only definition that counts.
Proportionality in war, as defined in Article 51 of the 4th Geneva Convention, is defined as operations where the civilian losses are proportional to the military advantage gained. It was meant to exclude cases like the German bombings of Rotterdam and Warsaw, which took place after the cities had surrendered and thus provided no military advantage.
A disproportionate attack is defined as:
"an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated"
Proportionality in war does not demand that wars reduce to a sequence of equivalent tit for tats and is not the same as in common expression (just as spontaneity in chemistry does not match the common usage of the term).
"7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations."
100%!!! Im not sure if this is even one step further : not just deterrence, but surrender meaning the governing entity is out and is replaced by the victor. Isn’t that what the Allies did in WW2?
James Howard Kunstler is reporting that Bibi, knowing JoeBamaLa hates Israel has informed the Blob that if they engineer another election steal, he will blow up the Iranian oil fields and make a great big mess for Kamala to struggle with.
It is second hand hand info, but Kunstler is very reliable and since it's hopeful I wanted to share it.
Just read it and you are correct. Kunstler cited his source, Mike McCormick, White House stenographer, and it reads truth. The democrats have several things in place for the steal of the election. Bibi ain’t playing with this fecal mess anymore. Amen and thank you for reporting.
Much had been said about the concept of "proportionality" by many people who are wholly unqualified to speak on this nuanced legal concept. From what I understand, proportionality is not about limiting retaliations to match the severity of an enemy's attack. It is about ensuring that, when attacking, that the level of collateral damage (i.e., civilian deaths) is weighed against the value of the intended target. I just watched an excellent video from an amazing organization, UK Lawyers for Israel (UKLFI). It was a panel discussion that took place during the most recent UN General Assembly, by experts in international law, including Barrister Natasha Hausdorff and now-retired Harvard law professor, Alan Dershiwotz. You can watch the video here:
Israel should do whatever however and whenever it deems necessary to eradicate terrorism Proportionality is another double standard employed solely against Israel
Proportionality means not enough picture perfect dead Jews. Because who cares about 80 year old b & w film of heaps of naked Jews
It’s an abstraction. As is the twisted torso of the naked bi National tattoo lady paraded as a trophy. You recall John McCains quip for which he was excoriated. It’s time
You want proportionality we’ll give you proportionality…the next time the right honorable Ali Khamenei gives one of those inspirational threatening speeches to his large silly fan club in the town square, drop exactly 180 bombs on their heads.
Another great essay. I hate pleas for "proportionality" because they're so intellectually dishonest, and to argue against this seemingly reasonable demand, you have to take the time, as you so eloquently have, to systematically expose its dishonesty. Which only works if anyone is listening.
My husband (who is not Jewish) joked recently that to ensure proportionality, Israel should fire exactly 181 ballistic missiles at military targets in Iran. He said that to really be proportional, we should aim for civilian targets but Israel is really interested in the military targets so that would do. Would that shut up the international call for proportionality? Of course not because our missiles would actually hit their targets.
Yesterday my rabbi's Rosh Hashanah sermon was about his discomfort with the ethical issues surrounding Jewish power. The subterfuge of the pager operation bothers him. He talked about the howls on the Internet about sneaky Jews. The wealthy Jews who threatened to pull their endowments unless colleges addressed their pro-Hamas ground forces bother him. He talked about the howls on the Internet about Jewish money. He is worried that if Jews use power, the world will hate them and things will get more dangerous for us.
And he also made the point that if Jews don't use their power, the world will simply wipe us out. He came to the ethical conclusion that there is no right answer.
He reminded me of Dara Horn's book, _People Love Dead Jews_, which Eylon Levy prefers to call, _People Love Jews Dead_. I remember the international calls for Jewish extermination on October 8, before Israel lifted a finger against Hamas. We looked weak then and excuse me, the world did not love us. A year later I hear all kinds of reports that they did, that for a whole week we had the world's sympathy. No we didn't. I was there. You were there. Everyone reading this was there. The world buzzed with people saying, "What can you expect, the Israelis deserved it."
When bad things happen specifically to Israelis and generally to Jews, the world either celebrates or makes an effort to politely hide its satisfaction.
When Jews look weak, the world moves in for the kill. When Jews look strong, the world howls in outrage.
Calls for "proportionality" are only polite requests to roll over and die. And you make that point.
I've really had it with the hypocrisy. Golda Meir nailed it: "If we have to have a choice between being dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we'd rather be alive and have the bad image."
Bravo. How does a decent army proportionately respond to the Oct. 7 massacre of sleeping families on a holy day…or a people who came up w suicide vests on their kids sent into civilian communities. Carry on IDF, Bibi…awaiting news of the next proportionate pager caper.
You need to find a new rabbi.
What you don't know is that we are a very small Jewish community in a rural area where everyone has guns, and the rabbi's children are pretty much alone and tormented by both students and teachers in the high school, and from time to time people in our general area have gone nuts, picking off passersby with deer rifles. He is right to worry for them, and he doesn't make anywhere near enough to ship them out of here to a private school.
Thanks for setting me straight. That seems like a rather ugly situation, without immediate remedy. What state are you in?
Maine
Tormented by student and teachers. ?????!!!!!!!
Yeah. Not only the students but also the teachers are against Israel and against Jews, and the administration won't do anything about it. Sort of like in most American colleges.
He’s usually terrific. I know him well enough to know he’s just worried for his kids.
The pager strategy was brilliant. Just a shame the explosions weren’t a bit bigger. Israel is lambasted (incorrectly) for ‘indiscriminate’ bombing. How much more ‘discriminate’ can you get than personalised detonations?
“Indiscriminate” and “disproportionate” means “the wrong guys lost.”
In general we have to stop worrying about what everyone thinks of us. It’s a lose lose as you are all pointing out. What is ethical is self-preservation. Period. Whatever that takes.
This obsession with fighting a “nice” war is absurd.
Particularly against terrorists as Our writer points out so eloquently.
Reform? Reconstructionist ? Jews are the only people for whom power is a dirty word. Jews who hold pseudo mock Seders with Jews as the villains Jews saying Kaddish for dead Palestinians. They celebrate and we mourn not for our people. For them. Sickness of the Jews. I’m still a member of Democrat party and thoroughly disgusted. I’ve lived as Safe American through all of Israel wars since 67. Not counting 56. As I was a small child
He’s not like that. He’s hardcore Zionist and behind Israel all the way. He just is very conscious that power corrupts and he wants us to be very careful to be moral and mindful with our power. I see nothing wrong with that.
Who are you writing this for? Maybe you need to it to the Nantucket Ladies Auxiliary Gentile Club? The UN, Geneva Convention, and any other international organization are irrelevant when the stated objective is to finish the complete annihilation of every living Jew. There will not be another Holocaust. .
If we want to be intellectually honest, then let us just say that the "world", as represented by the U.N. and the hateful yappers that surround the Jews, does not give a rat's behind about the Jews. Regardless of Israel's response to aggression against it, the response from the "world" will be continued hate. I just read Shelah Horvitz's comment about the conflictions and discomfort that seem to inflict her Rabbi. I am happy to say that my Chabad Rabbi has no such conflict. Indeed, yesterday he listed his desired wishes for the New Year. Afterwards I called out to him, "You forgot one. What is that", he asked. I answered, "Victory!" He replied, "Yes, total victory." Now is the time to smite Amalek once and for all.
You have a good rabbi.
The Geneva Convention and the UN were infiltrated by The Far Right and the Anti-Semites years ago. Fuck 'em.
I have already explained how The Far Left become tools of The Far Right in The State. All British International appointments made at intermediate and upper levels to these international organisations become subject to the interests of Far-Right Five and Six here in The United Kingdom. They are surrounded Electronically and then The Nazis (who are the absolute worst perverted fucking scum I can assure you) in these Agencies then work them, like puppets. There is Massive Anti-Semitic interest in then selling these AntiSemitic Assets, who are then played in Matches, for Cash and Money Market Positions, to the Arabs and Far Eastern clients. This is how, and why, these organisations are infiltrated by The Nazis.
Heard Israel just took out a leader, Oufi, who was planning another Oct 7 attack. I think we have the world’s attention.
Maybe, just maybe they are beginning to realize the meaning of FAFO, Bibi’s policy post October 7. It’s a new day. I hope he has something equally satisfying and innovative in the works for October 7th 2024 as a reminder.
It doesn’t matter what the definition of proportionality is. It only matters what the US President’s definition means it to be. Until Israel figures out a way to cut the need for US weapons it is the only definition that counts.
Proportionality in war, as defined in Article 51 of the 4th Geneva Convention, is defined as operations where the civilian losses are proportional to the military advantage gained. It was meant to exclude cases like the German bombings of Rotterdam and Warsaw, which took place after the cities had surrendered and thus provided no military advantage.
A disproportionate attack is defined as:
"an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated"
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-51
Proportionality in war does not demand that wars reduce to a sequence of equivalent tit for tats and is not the same as in common expression (just as spontaneity in chemistry does not match the common usage of the term).
Note section 7 of Article 51:
"7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations."
You are a great historian. I can’t read through that stuff with patience
100%!!! Im not sure if this is even one step further : not just deterrence, but surrender meaning the governing entity is out and is replaced by the victor. Isn’t that what the Allies did in WW2?
James Howard Kunstler is reporting that Bibi, knowing JoeBamaLa hates Israel has informed the Blob that if they engineer another election steal, he will blow up the Iranian oil fields and make a great big mess for Kamala to struggle with.
It is second hand hand info, but Kunstler is very reliable and since it's hopeful I wanted to share it.
Just read it and you are correct. Kunstler cited his source, Mike McCormick, White House stenographer, and it reads truth. The democrats have several things in place for the steal of the election. Bibi ain’t playing with this fecal mess anymore. Amen and thank you for reporting.
Much had been said about the concept of "proportionality" by many people who are wholly unqualified to speak on this nuanced legal concept. From what I understand, proportionality is not about limiting retaliations to match the severity of an enemy's attack. It is about ensuring that, when attacking, that the level of collateral damage (i.e., civilian deaths) is weighed against the value of the intended target. I just watched an excellent video from an amazing organization, UK Lawyers for Israel (UKLFI). It was a panel discussion that took place during the most recent UN General Assembly, by experts in international law, including Barrister Natasha Hausdorff and now-retired Harvard law professor, Alan Dershiwotz. You can watch the video here:
https://youtu.be/z_KETx62Dy0?si=bTrytNy5oLdUtlJb
I urge everyone here to watch this video. You will be much better educated for having done so.
Love your work Joshua. You have expressed a view shared by many, except you have done it better than most! Thank you.
Israel should do whatever however and whenever it deems necessary to eradicate terrorism Proportionality is another double standard employed solely against Israel
Proportionality means not enough picture perfect dead Jews. Because who cares about 80 year old b & w film of heaps of naked Jews
It’s an abstraction. As is the twisted torso of the naked bi National tattoo lady paraded as a trophy. You recall John McCains quip for which he was excoriated. It’s time
You want proportionality we’ll give you proportionality…the next time the right honorable Ali Khamenei gives one of those inspirational threatening speeches to his large silly fan club in the town square, drop exactly 180 bombs on their heads.
The Geneva Convention and the UN were infiltrated by The Far Right and the Anti-Semites years ago.