Vanessa, I think the idea that Israelis are pro-war is completely detached from reality.
If Israel truly wanted war, Gaza could have been flattened long ago. Israel has repeatedly demonstrated restraint and repeatedly taken risks for peace. The problem is that many of those risks produced more violence, not less.
What has changed over the years is not that Israelis became pro-war. What changed is that many Israelis stopped believing the illusion that giving up territory automatically produces peace. The withdrawal from Gaza is probably the clearest example. Instead of peace, Israelis got Hamas on their border, rockets, tunnels, kidnappings, and October 7.
Israelis haven't become more warlike. They've become more skeptical.
The old peace camp believed that if enough concessions were made, peace would follow. Many Israelis now believe that peace is impossible until the ideology dedicated to Israel's destruction is defeated or abandoned.
Israelis still want peace. They just want evidence that the other side wants peace too. After everything that has happened, that's not extremism. That's common sense.
I actually think that these bubble-wrapped entitled American Jews be told once and for all to go live in Israel and then they can shout to their hearts content what they demand of Israel. And its time for Israelis to tell American Jews who always are demonizing Israel, no thanks to Reform, the social activist sect officially since the late 1990s with a speck of Judaism, Tikkun Olam to make it palatable, which has done it openly for decades, to show how they believe one can live peacefully by all moving to Muslim areas in the US such as Dearborn, and other enclaves in various cities where jihadists are most radical, and see how peaceful their life is.
Bonnie, I think that's a little unfair to diaspora Jews as a whole.
Yes, there are still some very vocal anti-Israel Jewish activists, and they get a tremendous amount of media attention. But I don't think they represent most Jews anymore.
Since October 7, I think there has been a major shift. Many Jews who may have once leaned left politically have been shocked by the reaction they saw on campuses, in activist circles, and within parts of the Democratic Party. The illusion that everyone would stand with Jews when it mattered has been badly damaged.
Most Jews I see are strongly supportive of Israel, strongly supportive of Israel's fight against Iran and its terror proxies, and strongly Zionist. They may disagree on policies, but that's very different from rejecting Israel.
It's also worth remembering that diaspora Jews pay a price too. Rising antisemitism, threats, harassment, vandalism, and even violence affect Jews outside Israel every time these conflicts escalate.
So while I understand your frustration with the anti-Israel fringe, I don't think it's fair to paint the entire diaspora Jewish community with the same brush.
First of all, I am talking about American Jews who are in fact total outliers of the Jewish Diaspora, except perhaps the Dati as Reform is minuscule in the rest of the Diaspora. You are correct about the older generations except for the old Progressives who are replaying the 1960s hippy stage of their lives, but the younger generations have sadly been mostly brainwashed, by social media where they get their news, and academics who incessantly demonized Israel and Jews, in the Humanities and Social Sciences, except for Economics. Many have heard continuous demonizing of Israel that went on for decades by the Reform leaders and many of the rabbis, until Oct. 7 and then were shocked that many of their youth and young adults were supporting Hamas atrocities. Well, if you teach hatred, you get hatred, and thus the kids who sat in their synagogues, Hebrew Schools and camps of Reform got the message only too clearly. I remember vividly an older Reform rabbi crying on video after Oct. 7, saying Reform did not mean to teach hatred of Israel, but just that Israel has problems. Reform did not mean to tell their youth to support the terrorists. Well, what did they think would happen? Not only do they hate Israel, but many, their own identity as Jews.
Bonnie, I think there is definitely a problem among some younger Jews, and I agree that years of anti-Israel messaging have had consequences.
Where I would be cautious is in assuming that this represents most young Jews. From what I've seen, many younger Jews were shaken by October 7 and by the reaction that followed. Some may have been confused before, but seeing Hamas celebrated in the streets and on campuses forced a lot of people to rethink things.
I also think we sometimes underestimate how much support for Israel still exists among younger Jews, even when they disagree with particular Israeli governments or policies.
The anti-Israel Jewish activists are loud, highly visible, and get enormous media attention. But I'm not convinced they represent the majority of young Jews. They may simply be the ones we hear from most often.
I think October 7 was a wake-up call for many people, and the long-term effects of that shift are still playing out.
By its very nature, of being surrounded by Iran and its proxy armies, the IDF HAS TO BE ‘one of the strongest and most capable militaries in the world’, otherwise Israel would face destruction.
The Talmud teaches: “If someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first.” That is not a call for aggression. It is a recognition of reality. If someone announces their intention to murder you and then actively attempts to do so, self-defense is not warmongering. It is survival.
Common sense have left the West since "Human Rights" Only the aggressor and criminals have rights. The rest must accept that they are not victims but willing targets.
Israeli-American settler Rachel Moore said, "The notion that because the West Bank is not property of Israel means it’s okay to say that no Jews should live there is morally problematic…”
and the author's term: "the West Bank or in Israel proper."
Why is it Jews think that if they use their enemy's language to describe themselves and their ancestral homeland, they are being liberal and open minded. Under closer examination, it is patently an act of self de-legitimization. Psychologically speaking, the pathology is known as self-sabotage. It erodes confidence in one's identity and ultimately alienates one from an identification with one's community, where a sense of belonging is crucial to emotional and mental health, not to mention spiritual growth.
The establishment of a nation state or disposition of its territory through war is a legal issue, not one to be settled through personal belief, public opinion, media bias, UN and its agencies prejudices, or real politik.
The so-called West Bank was Judea, Samaria, as well as an indivisible district of Jerusalem. They were captured by Jordan in 1948 and renamed the West Bank in 1950. According to International Law, Jordan's actions of annexation, granting citizenship to the Arab residents, renaming the territory, and upon officially withdrawing its administrative and legal authority in 1988, transferring its claims of sovereignty to a third entity, the PLO are legally without force or effect.
If Law were to be applied impartially according to statue and precedent, this heartland of Israel recovered by her in 1967 would be deemed — as it has been with all other countries that have recovered territory seized by a belligerent — liberated territory being returned to rightful sovereignty, not occupied territory.
"those of us in the international community who want to best understand these conflicts would be wise to start with the fact that these are not wars over land or resources, but holy wars over Islam’s tenets."
A point the secularist, CRT leaning, Red-Green-AltR Axis infused West ignore because of its implications.
"Israelis . . . know that there is a profound difference between fighting because you want war and fighting because war has been brought to your doorstep. One is aggression, the other is self-preservation."
Self-preservation means self-defence, a point in law which exonerates an accused if he can prove that in taking the life of another, he was defending his own against a predatory attacker.
"Being anti-war does not mean believing that countries under attack are obligated to respond 'proportionately' simply to keep the score even."
Lay people are mostly unaware that "Proportionality" is a legal term pertaining to military action, not kill numbers. To quote another article writer according to the binding principle of proportionality which is a binding rule and fundamental legal norm, "the civilian toll must be proportional to the military value of the target that is struck."
I am a simple man, unencumbered by the need to analyze "nuance" in phrasing. Regarding the current World War Against the Jews, when I hear someone say that they are anti-war, I hear "anti-Jew." "Nuf said.
It is time that the bubble-wrapped, entitled American Jews who always demand Israel to not go to war, or whatever else nonsensical comes into their heads at the moment concerning Israel to stop yapping. If you go live in Israel instead of your luxury bubble-wrapped comfortable communities in the US, then you are entitled to add your two cents worth. Can you imagine if Israelis told American Jews that to show how earnest they are in being all for peace, that they must immediately all move into Dearborn, Somalia controlled areas of Minneapolis and all other Muslim enclaves, in various cities of the US and show Israelis how you can live in peace with the jihadists next door.
Vanessa, I think the idea that Israelis are pro-war is completely detached from reality.
If Israel truly wanted war, Gaza could have been flattened long ago. Israel has repeatedly demonstrated restraint and repeatedly taken risks for peace. The problem is that many of those risks produced more violence, not less.
What has changed over the years is not that Israelis became pro-war. What changed is that many Israelis stopped believing the illusion that giving up territory automatically produces peace. The withdrawal from Gaza is probably the clearest example. Instead of peace, Israelis got Hamas on their border, rockets, tunnels, kidnappings, and October 7.
Israelis haven't become more warlike. They've become more skeptical.
The old peace camp believed that if enough concessions were made, peace would follow. Many Israelis now believe that peace is impossible until the ideology dedicated to Israel's destruction is defeated or abandoned.
Israelis still want peace. They just want evidence that the other side wants peace too. After everything that has happened, that's not extremism. That's common sense.
I actually think that these bubble-wrapped entitled American Jews be told once and for all to go live in Israel and then they can shout to their hearts content what they demand of Israel. And its time for Israelis to tell American Jews who always are demonizing Israel, no thanks to Reform, the social activist sect officially since the late 1990s with a speck of Judaism, Tikkun Olam to make it palatable, which has done it openly for decades, to show how they believe one can live peacefully by all moving to Muslim areas in the US such as Dearborn, and other enclaves in various cities where jihadists are most radical, and see how peaceful their life is.
Bonnie, I think that's a little unfair to diaspora Jews as a whole.
Yes, there are still some very vocal anti-Israel Jewish activists, and they get a tremendous amount of media attention. But I don't think they represent most Jews anymore.
Since October 7, I think there has been a major shift. Many Jews who may have once leaned left politically have been shocked by the reaction they saw on campuses, in activist circles, and within parts of the Democratic Party. The illusion that everyone would stand with Jews when it mattered has been badly damaged.
Most Jews I see are strongly supportive of Israel, strongly supportive of Israel's fight against Iran and its terror proxies, and strongly Zionist. They may disagree on policies, but that's very different from rejecting Israel.
It's also worth remembering that diaspora Jews pay a price too. Rising antisemitism, threats, harassment, vandalism, and even violence affect Jews outside Israel every time these conflicts escalate.
So while I understand your frustration with the anti-Israel fringe, I don't think it's fair to paint the entire diaspora Jewish community with the same brush.
Be well and keep fighting the good fight.
First of all, I am talking about American Jews who are in fact total outliers of the Jewish Diaspora, except perhaps the Dati as Reform is minuscule in the rest of the Diaspora. You are correct about the older generations except for the old Progressives who are replaying the 1960s hippy stage of their lives, but the younger generations have sadly been mostly brainwashed, by social media where they get their news, and academics who incessantly demonized Israel and Jews, in the Humanities and Social Sciences, except for Economics. Many have heard continuous demonizing of Israel that went on for decades by the Reform leaders and many of the rabbis, until Oct. 7 and then were shocked that many of their youth and young adults were supporting Hamas atrocities. Well, if you teach hatred, you get hatred, and thus the kids who sat in their synagogues, Hebrew Schools and camps of Reform got the message only too clearly. I remember vividly an older Reform rabbi crying on video after Oct. 7, saying Reform did not mean to teach hatred of Israel, but just that Israel has problems. Reform did not mean to tell their youth to support the terrorists. Well, what did they think would happen? Not only do they hate Israel, but many, their own identity as Jews.
Bonnie, I think there is definitely a problem among some younger Jews, and I agree that years of anti-Israel messaging have had consequences.
Where I would be cautious is in assuming that this represents most young Jews. From what I've seen, many younger Jews were shaken by October 7 and by the reaction that followed. Some may have been confused before, but seeing Hamas celebrated in the streets and on campuses forced a lot of people to rethink things.
I also think we sometimes underestimate how much support for Israel still exists among younger Jews, even when they disagree with particular Israeli governments or policies.
The anti-Israel Jewish activists are loud, highly visible, and get enormous media attention. But I'm not convinced they represent the majority of young Jews. They may simply be the ones we hear from most often.
I think October 7 was a wake-up call for many people, and the long-term effects of that shift are still playing out.
By its very nature, of being surrounded by Iran and its proxy armies, the IDF HAS TO BE ‘one of the strongest and most capable militaries in the world’, otherwise Israel would face destruction.
The Talmud teaches: “If someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first.” That is not a call for aggression. It is a recognition of reality. If someone announces their intention to murder you and then actively attempts to do so, self-defense is not warmongering. It is survival.
Common sense have left the West since "Human Rights" Only the aggressor and criminals have rights. The rest must accept that they are not victims but willing targets.
Israeli-American settler Rachel Moore said, "The notion that because the West Bank is not property of Israel means it’s okay to say that no Jews should live there is morally problematic…”
and the author's term: "the West Bank or in Israel proper."
Why is it Jews think that if they use their enemy's language to describe themselves and their ancestral homeland, they are being liberal and open minded. Under closer examination, it is patently an act of self de-legitimization. Psychologically speaking, the pathology is known as self-sabotage. It erodes confidence in one's identity and ultimately alienates one from an identification with one's community, where a sense of belonging is crucial to emotional and mental health, not to mention spiritual growth.
The establishment of a nation state or disposition of its territory through war is a legal issue, not one to be settled through personal belief, public opinion, media bias, UN and its agencies prejudices, or real politik.
The so-called West Bank was Judea, Samaria, as well as an indivisible district of Jerusalem. They were captured by Jordan in 1948 and renamed the West Bank in 1950. According to International Law, Jordan's actions of annexation, granting citizenship to the Arab residents, renaming the territory, and upon officially withdrawing its administrative and legal authority in 1988, transferring its claims of sovereignty to a third entity, the PLO are legally without force or effect.
If Law were to be applied impartially according to statue and precedent, this heartland of Israel recovered by her in 1967 would be deemed — as it has been with all other countries that have recovered territory seized by a belligerent — liberated territory being returned to rightful sovereignty, not occupied territory.
"those of us in the international community who want to best understand these conflicts would be wise to start with the fact that these are not wars over land or resources, but holy wars over Islam’s tenets."
A point the secularist, CRT leaning, Red-Green-AltR Axis infused West ignore because of its implications.
"Israelis . . . know that there is a profound difference between fighting because you want war and fighting because war has been brought to your doorstep. One is aggression, the other is self-preservation."
Self-preservation means self-defence, a point in law which exonerates an accused if he can prove that in taking the life of another, he was defending his own against a predatory attacker.
"Being anti-war does not mean believing that countries under attack are obligated to respond 'proportionately' simply to keep the score even."
Lay people are mostly unaware that "Proportionality" is a legal term pertaining to military action, not kill numbers. To quote another article writer according to the binding principle of proportionality which is a binding rule and fundamental legal norm, "the civilian toll must be proportional to the military value of the target that is struck."
The Israel haters will never be swayed by logic.
I am a simple man, unencumbered by the need to analyze "nuance" in phrasing. Regarding the current World War Against the Jews, when I hear someone say that they are anti-war, I hear "anti-Jew." "Nuf said.
It is time that the bubble-wrapped, entitled American Jews who always demand Israel to not go to war, or whatever else nonsensical comes into their heads at the moment concerning Israel to stop yapping. If you go live in Israel instead of your luxury bubble-wrapped comfortable communities in the US, then you are entitled to add your two cents worth. Can you imagine if Israelis told American Jews that to show how earnest they are in being all for peace, that they must immediately all move into Dearborn, Somalia controlled areas of Minneapolis and all other Muslim enclaves, in various cities of the US and show Israelis how you can live in peace with the jihadists next door.
.. diaspora Jews, especially those in America, who criticise Israel publicly, need to wake up and smell the roses.