If the old two-state solution is dead, but the Palestinians can’t expel the Israelis, Israel can’t expel the Palestinians, and the status quo is untenable, then we need bolder alternatives.
Your reasoning is a tidy Liberal minded argument which will not hold up to the bitter reality of the Region. The Arabs of Gaza and Judea and Samaria want to ERASE Israel. They would Absolutely do so if given a State-entity to re-arm with. Here in London we have monitored The re-formation of The Nazi Party, and they are now in Alliance with Hamas. Legally, countries who have status at the U.N. have the right to armies, whether or not lying Arab politicians renounced this right in the short term. This would ABSOLUTELY be used to continue the Nazi and the Arab war of Genocide against The Jewish People. Thus State entity for the Arabs of Gaza CAN NOW NO LONGER BE. Ever. Sad, but just so. Get used to this as fact.
Exactly. Does this person live in Israel? Does he comprehend there is no logic in ME thinking? Does he comprehend fanaticism that rivals ISIS? Does he comprehend Jordan is an actual enemy and at best a frigid neighbour? Does he comprehend that for the Palestinians it is all or nothing and even at the best of times want all Jews slaughtered? Does he understand the geography of Judea and Samaria which are on hills and can shoot one metre and kill Israelis on the other side of the border? This sounds like the worst of delusional Progressive thinking of someone with the chutzpah to tell Israelis how and when to live and die, but would have a meltdown if Israel told American Jews they must all move to Dearborn so they can make peace with the Muslims.
I don't think you read the article fully if you're calling it "liberal-minded." To be clear, the proposal calls for the future Palestinian state to be a semi-authoritarian monarchy willing and able to suppress Islamist terror.
It's an extremely well written article, historically accurate and with a logical, practical sensible proposal.
Unfortunately, the Arafat / Sinwar / Abbas / Hamas / Hezbollah / Iranian tendency are not interested in historical accuracy and certainly not interested in logical, practical, sensible proposals - if they were, there would have been two States 77 years ago.
All they are interested in is destroying Israel and every Jew between the Jordan & the Med.
And the Israeli government & Knesset knows this.
And the terrorists are not going to change.
Once upon a time there was a terrorist separatist organisation that also demanded a State of their own.
They were called the 'Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam', or more commonly, the 'Tamil Tigers'.
All sorts of peace plans were tried, all sorts of offers - but the terrorists wouldn't accept any compromise and eventually the Sri Lankan government ran out of patience.
Anyone heard from the Tamil Tigers recently?
(Inevitably, the Sri Lankan government was faced with allegations of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but those allegations became fish & chip wrappings sixteen years ago)
I believe the Israeli government has similarly run out of patience; I watched a recent interview with a bereaved father who lost his daughter at the Nova Festival. He said something to the effect that he had been empathetic with the 'Palestinians' in Gaza all his life - but that he was no longer so minded.
It was a very affecting interview.
And I believe I would feel the same.
With President Trump squeezing Iran via sanctions and with the quite incredible actions of the IDF, (clearly the most effective Army & Air Force in the world), I believe we are seeing the beginning of the end of the 'Palestinian' cause.
I don't believe there is such a thing as a negotiated peace - the bad guys don't want it, they would rather become martyrs.
Thank you for the comments. You write: "Unfortunately, the Arafat / Sinwar / Abbas / Hamas / Hezbollah / Iranian tendency are not interested in historical accuracy and certainly not interested in logical, practical, sensible proposals." Right, which is why this proposal is not aimed at them. It's aimed at regional actors who see both Iran and Islamism as threats, but who also want to resolve the Palestinian issue for the sake of regional stability. Call it the Abraham Accords tendency, as opposed to the Iranian tendency.
As for the Tamil Tigers, this comparison falls short because Sri Lanka is only about 15% Tamil. By contrast, Greater Israel (ie, including the Palestinian Territories) is about 50% Arab. Therefore, Sri Lanka could crush the Tamil Tigers, continue providing citizenship rights to the largely Hindu Tamils, while maintaining its status as a predominantly Buddhist Sinhalese democracy. Israel could crush Hamas, but if it annexes the West Bank and Gaza, it would have to either withhold citizenship rights from the Palestinians, thus losing its status as a democracy, or make them Israeli citizens and so lose its status as a Jewish state.
Israel is very tiny, surrounded by huge Muslim states: Create a "Palestine" from one of the Muslim countries. Israel deserves, and NEEDS, all of their land, intact. Not only for security but also because it is JEWISH land. Also, Israel will need the land as the New Middle East takes off and Israel--not America--becomes the protector and enforcer of the New Middle East. Israel will need more military installations, factories to supply weapons, population expansion, and again--security. If Israel isn't secure, ain't no one in the M.E. is going to be secure.
The arabs of gaza and the west bank are the same levant arabs that lived in the Ottoman area for hundreds of years .. the same levant arabs that were part of the British Mandated territory, of which 78% became Jordan .. Jordanian arabs are of the same cloth.
Israel must not give up strategic west bank, nor share Jerusalem as a capital.
Jordan in reality, is the second state of the two state solution.
yep, if Jordan wants ta lay down their beefs (Halal 'er otherwize) with the Pallies...by all means move 'em thar an' call it what'cha want--Jordanian Palestine 'er Middle Eastern Elbow... Israel should not cede the West Bank (meanin'fully Jooish AND strategic). Gaza, too, cain't be occupied by Jordanians, Pallies or (imho) Muslims as they all wanna kill da joos an' use it as a glide(er) strip like on them cheap razors--it's been tried already...notta plan.
Now if the beleaguered Druze were "given" Gaza I'd yell cHuzzah! (aka hooray--I tink they both sound the same mit Arab akcent anyway). Gaza is only significant ta Israel strategically so any "pals" (not pallies) livin' next door would be good neighbors (an' Israel duz not need the headache of managin' Gaza again).
ps okey, readin' the commints here (some thankfully above mah paygrade!) even Jordan absorbin' the pallies may not work....but anywhoo--West Bank stays with Israel, Gaza--not Muslims....as I said, Druze, Christian Arabs, etc. all a-ok
Yes those pushing this stupid idea like Macron, Starmer, Carney, Putin or the Beta males leaders in Western Europe can welcome The "Palestinians" into their own countries.
This is an interesting idea, but Dan is right about the likely ultimate outcome.
The “Palestinians” would never accept your notion of the “right of return,” because that makes zero sense. The land they want to “return” to is Israel, period. And they *were* once there. They left voluntarily, which they refuse to admit, but it actually was there. It’s not land per se that they want, it’s *that specific* land only.
Giving up the entire “West Bank” should never be considered an option by Israel, and likely would not be. It would render the country indefensible.
Jordan, regardless of the actual name, is highly unlikely to grant equal citizenship to the Jewish settlers, and the Palestinians would be even less inclined to do so. They are Muslim countries, and that is just simply not how Islam operates. You need to learn about how the Koran mandates treating anyone who refuses to convert to Islam - “infidels”, aka “kafirs,” - and about taqqiya and tawriya. *
At best* they would be regarded as “dhimmies” (second class citizens), required to pay a very high tax called “jizya,” and be limited in how they would be allowed to practice their religion.
Still, I like the creativity of your thinking, and I agree that a new, outside-the-box solution might be the only viable option.
Firstly in 1967 Israel would have been more than happy to give back the “West Bank” in exchange for recognition of Israel in the pre 1967 borders and peace. They didn’t want to take over 2 million Arabs which would have resulted in Israel being a predominantly Muslim country within a couple of generations. How do I know this? I was living there. A relative was a member of Begin’s Cabinet and I even discussed this with Begin himself. This could not work out because of the “River to the sea” mindset of the Palestinians and the ongoing attacks on Israel which is only 8 kilometers wide in its most populous areas.
Also Jordan will never accept the Palestinians despite they are originally the same tribe, religion and ethnic group. They have already, in the past, caused war and destruction in Jordan and the Jordanians hate them. It’s the same with all the other Arab countries. They pay lip service to the Palestinian cause but none of them want to allow them citizenship to instigate unrest and jihad in their own countries. It’s a terrible situation but until the Palestinians can undo the education and brainwashing of future generations these wars will continue. Look at the rest of the Middle East. For five thousand years or more, if they haven’t been killing the Jews they’ve been killing each other. America has only made things worse by all the wars we have instigated and then pulled out of causing damage and destruction that takes centuries to undo. What Americans don’t understand is that these people don’t want Democracy forced upon them particularly by capitalists of the military industrial complex, like Cheney, who start these wars to enrich their own pockets.
Now it may be even too late to save the western world which has been taken over by Islamists who believe we should all be living under Sharia law or it is their duty to murder us. The Judao/christian culture has been all but eradicated in Europe and America. We are in decline like the Roman Empire. Our only hope to continue civilization is for the Chinese to take over before the Islamists do!
Jordan is not to be trusted. King Abdullah's recent tirade against Israel at the UN reveals the true nature of the peace with Jordan, which has an anti-normalization committee that blackballs any rapprochement with Israel by any Jordanian professional. A Palestinian overwhelming majority in Jordan would tear the country apart and result in an armed threat against Israel worse than the PA. If any Arab country and especially Saudi Arabia were sincere in wanting peace with Israel it would seek it without attaching it to the Palestinian cause and boldly lead the Arab Muslim world to true peace with no strings attached instead of using the Palestinian cause as a stick with which to beat Israel up and fan the irredentist Palestinian mentality and Jew hatred endemic to the Arab Muslim world. Israel needs to extend sovereignty over Gaza, Judea and Samaria, lock down the "Palestinians" who live there and escort them out eventually. Egypt is a failed state rife with officially sponsored antisemitism, making the peace with Israel cold indeed and perennially dangerous, as exemplified by the Egyptian military build-up in the Sinai violating the peace treaty. Not to mention Turkey stirring things up constantly from afar. Israel can rely only on itself and its historic borders.
Jordan already has a Palestinian majority. Estimates vary, but 60% is a reasonable conjecture. If Jordan were to annex the West Bank and Gaza, it would be around 73% Palestinian. Why is a 60% Palestinian state an acceptable (if imperfect, as you rightly note) neighbor, while a 73% Palestinian state is untenable? Again, as stated in the article, Jordan already controlled the West Bank in the past. After it annexed the West Bank, Jordan was 2/3rds Palestinian, yet the monarchy held on, so we already have proof of concept for the idea.
As for your counter-proposal of escorting the Palestinians out, who will take them in? For that matter, are you confident that the Israeli army is able and willing to forcibly deport 5.5 million people? Are you also confident that Israel could survive the subsequent international isolation, which would be much worse than anything going on today?
One does not have to worry about who will take the Palestinians in, just as one should ignore the international reaction which is always suicidal for Israel. No Palestinian state west of the Jordan river is acceptable because it would be suicidal for Israel. Jordan cannot be relied upon any more than any Arab Muslim state can be relied upon to keep the peace and behave properly in the concert of nations. Look at how Abdullah currently lambastes Israel every chance he gets while depending on Israel to keep him afloat. The Muslims lie, bludgeon, betray; their word is worthless and so are the documents they sign going back to Mohammed who was an illiterate. By the way, Kuweit got rid of 350,000 Palestinians and no one bothered to ask who would take them in. Israel should pay back the Palestinians and their western allies in kind.
Agree, Jordan ain't no "pal" but Jordan's got 'bout 11mill population-wise--would 1.5-2 million unruly pallies tip the scales? It's a lotta "ref-fugue-geez" ta re-home so they gotta be absorbed somewhar... Fully agreed re Judea & Samaria, I'd be fine if Gaza wuz in any non-muslim hands--suggestin' Druze...
Too bad, it's THEIR people and the arabs should be responsible for them Why is it ok for Israel to have to live with 2 million unruly pallies but a non-starter for Jordan? Jordan has plenty of land, unlike Israel.
yep, good "pernt" they DO have enuf land to accommodate these "unrulies" without expandin' into Israeli terrytory (let a lone havin' it divided further as if it hasn't been broken already as if it was peanut brittle---er sesame brittle ;-)
Absolutely NOT! History has shown that the writer's thinking is in no way based on reality, or understanding of Arab mentality or frankly anything that has been going on for the past 75 years.
This conflict appears to many to be about land, and land is truly a focus of the indoctrination of the Arabs who call themselves “Palestinians,” but the crux of this conflict has always at its core been the Muslim rejection of Jewish sovereignty anywhere in the ME as, conveniently, once land is conquered by Islam it remains Islamic property. There is no land swap that will ever solve this problem. Our only hope is to stay strong and steadfast in knowing who we are and where we belong, and vow to never give away any land again as that will seal our destruction. They don’t need our land; they want us out and a victory for Islam. What would happen to the world’s Jews then? Our power and survival depend on our strength and resolve to stay put and hold tight.
I’m living through the second instantiation of Balaam’s ass. For what it’s worth given the world sentiment turning against us perhaps we will have to live briefly with such an enemy. They undoubtedly will attack us and then by the grace of Hashem our second chance at Behoukhosai will happen our 5 will conquer their thousands. Something we all are going to hate is going to happen. God will provide.
Indeedy! OtherWISE put.... they sho'nuff seem ta be beatin' our Ass lately (ouch!) so I'm hopin' that we'll git ta the "zingin' our praises" part quick as our proverbial Ass is sore (an' whatta turrible beatin' poor Israel has been takin') That angel cain't appear soon enuf!
Too much thinking while reading before my coffee but there is no statehood awarded to murderers who still have innocent, civilian hostages. Anyway, HaShem gave a detailed description of Gaza coastline property and it goes to Judah after He rids it of the inhabitants who soiled it. Judaea/Samaria are not negotiable. Cream and sugar?
1) That's why the state will be ruled by the Hashemites of Jordan.
2) Jordan already has a Palestinian majority. Estimates vary, but 60% is a reasonable conjecture. If Jordan were to annex the West Bank and Gaza, it would be around 73% Palestinian. Why is a 60% Palestinian state an acceptable neighbor, but a 73% Palestinian state an automatic security threat?
Then, hopefully soon, the fall of the mullahs in Iran and peace with Saudi Arabia will do the rest — to the point that your proposal of a moderate Jordan/Palestine might be viable.
1) Once the state is called “Palestine,” Palestinianism will be boosted like never before, making quick order of the Hashemites. Not before long we’d see a rematch of 1970 — with a very different result.
2) The Pals of the W. Bank and Gaza are far more radical than their brethren in Jordan, making their entry into the body politic of Jordan revolutionary.
3) The Hashemite monarchy in Jordan know this, which is why they will never agree to your proposal.
1) So what do you do with "Palestinianism"? The dream of a number of commentators here seems to be that you move all of the Palestinians to Jordan and Egypt and hope that they forget about their identity in a few years. I find that much more unrealistic than anything I've proposed in the article. My alternative is that you merge "Palestinianism" with "Jordanianism" (or "Hashemitism") and forcibly redirect it in a pragmatic direction.
2) That may be so, but they all descend from the same group of people, so deradicalization is clearly possible. The less radical, longstanding Jordanian Palestinians could help deradicalize their brethren in the West Bank and Gaza. As could the secret police, of course.
3) No, they won't agree to my proposal. But they might agree to one backed by major Arab powers. The "Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine" was earlier proposed by Ali Shihabi, a confidante of MBS.
Nice idea. But when Arafat and his minions tried to murder Hussein, that possiblility was eliminated for good. Also keep in mind...this whole thing is not about finding a comfy home for the individual 'palestinian', it is about slaughtering Jews and bringing Israel under Muslim rule. Period.
Do you really believe this? Where have you been the last two years? Did the fact that October 7 occurred after Israel completely withdrew from gaza, including every single Jewish resident, convince the so-called "civilized" world that it was a clear-cut case of unprovoked aggression to which Israel had the right to fight back? Have the last two years failed to convince you that whatever barbaric atrocities the "palestinians" perpetrate against Israelis, the "civilized" world will still consider any Israeli response to be illegitimate? I guarantee you with 100% certainty, that should there ever be a state of "palestine" and should it attack Israel, the "civilized" world will still deny Israel's right of self-defense and that it will still be Israelis who get blamed and defamed as the aggressors once it strikes back.
I have a far better solution. Egypt and Jordan accept the arabs of Gaza and Judea-Samaria into their own nations respectively and Israel's borders extend from the river to the sea. Peace will only come when Israel has complete sovereignty over all of its land.
"Moreover, the appearance of legitimacy matters. A Palestinian state attacking Israel — absent arguments about occupation, settlements, and apartheid — would be a clear-cut case of unprovoked aggression for most of the civilized world".
"I guarantee you with 100% certainty, that should there ever be a state of 'palestine' and should it attack Israel, the 'civilized' world will still deny Israel's right of self-defense and that it will still be Israelis who get blamed and defamed as the aggressors once it strikes back."
Yes, there are radical leftists and Islamists who will blame Israel in any circumstances. But that's not an excuse for nihilistic passivity. I used the qualifier "civilized" world for a reason. Israel still has agency and can alter the opinion of the persuadable middle through its actions. It's certainly done so under the current Netanyahu government, to its detriment.
"I have a far better solution. Egypt and Jordan accept the arabs of Gaza and Judea-Samaria into their own nations respectively and Israel's borders extend from the river to the sea."
Please elaborate as to how you will force Egypt and Jordan to accept 5.5 million Palestinians and why that is more realistic than my proposal.
Your reasoning is a tidy Liberal minded argument which will not hold up to the bitter reality of the Region. The Arabs of Gaza and Judea and Samaria want to ERASE Israel. They would Absolutely do so if given a State-entity to re-arm with. Here in London we have monitored The re-formation of The Nazi Party, and they are now in Alliance with Hamas. Legally, countries who have status at the U.N. have the right to armies, whether or not lying Arab politicians renounced this right in the short term. This would ABSOLUTELY be used to continue the Nazi and the Arab war of Genocide against The Jewish People. Thus State entity for the Arabs of Gaza CAN NOW NO LONGER BE. Ever. Sad, but just so. Get used to this as fact.
Exactly. Does this person live in Israel? Does he comprehend there is no logic in ME thinking? Does he comprehend fanaticism that rivals ISIS? Does he comprehend Jordan is an actual enemy and at best a frigid neighbour? Does he comprehend that for the Palestinians it is all or nothing and even at the best of times want all Jews slaughtered? Does he understand the geography of Judea and Samaria which are on hills and can shoot one metre and kill Israelis on the other side of the border? This sounds like the worst of delusional Progressive thinking of someone with the chutzpah to tell Israelis how and when to live and die, but would have a meltdown if Israel told American Jews they must all move to Dearborn so they can make peace with the Muslims.
Amen!
I don't think you read the article fully if you're calling it "liberal-minded." To be clear, the proposal calls for the future Palestinian state to be a semi-authoritarian monarchy willing and able to suppress Islamist terror.
You’re a racist with an immoral and grotesque vision.
I am neither of those things. Also, SM, you need to get used to the Reality of The Middle East.
It's an extremely well written article, historically accurate and with a logical, practical sensible proposal.
Unfortunately, the Arafat / Sinwar / Abbas / Hamas / Hezbollah / Iranian tendency are not interested in historical accuracy and certainly not interested in logical, practical, sensible proposals - if they were, there would have been two States 77 years ago.
All they are interested in is destroying Israel and every Jew between the Jordan & the Med.
And the Israeli government & Knesset knows this.
And the terrorists are not going to change.
Once upon a time there was a terrorist separatist organisation that also demanded a State of their own.
They were called the 'Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam', or more commonly, the 'Tamil Tigers'.
All sorts of peace plans were tried, all sorts of offers - but the terrorists wouldn't accept any compromise and eventually the Sri Lankan government ran out of patience.
Anyone heard from the Tamil Tigers recently?
(Inevitably, the Sri Lankan government was faced with allegations of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but those allegations became fish & chip wrappings sixteen years ago)
I believe the Israeli government has similarly run out of patience; I watched a recent interview with a bereaved father who lost his daughter at the Nova Festival. He said something to the effect that he had been empathetic with the 'Palestinians' in Gaza all his life - but that he was no longer so minded.
It was a very affecting interview.
And I believe I would feel the same.
With President Trump squeezing Iran via sanctions and with the quite incredible actions of the IDF, (clearly the most effective Army & Air Force in the world), I believe we are seeing the beginning of the end of the 'Palestinian' cause.
I don't believe there is such a thing as a negotiated peace - the bad guys don't want it, they would rather become martyrs.
I have no problem with that.
Hamas Delenda Est
Thank you for the comments. You write: "Unfortunately, the Arafat / Sinwar / Abbas / Hamas / Hezbollah / Iranian tendency are not interested in historical accuracy and certainly not interested in logical, practical, sensible proposals." Right, which is why this proposal is not aimed at them. It's aimed at regional actors who see both Iran and Islamism as threats, but who also want to resolve the Palestinian issue for the sake of regional stability. Call it the Abraham Accords tendency, as opposed to the Iranian tendency.
As for the Tamil Tigers, this comparison falls short because Sri Lanka is only about 15% Tamil. By contrast, Greater Israel (ie, including the Palestinian Territories) is about 50% Arab. Therefore, Sri Lanka could crush the Tamil Tigers, continue providing citizenship rights to the largely Hindu Tamils, while maintaining its status as a predominantly Buddhist Sinhalese democracy. Israel could crush Hamas, but if it annexes the West Bank and Gaza, it would have to either withhold citizenship rights from the Palestinians, thus losing its status as a democracy, or make them Israeli citizens and so lose its status as a Jewish state.
Your argument falls short in that while all palestinians are Arab, not all Arabs are palestinian. So your 50% is irrelevant.
Hamas Delenda Est
No ‘ifs’
No ‘buts’
No ‘maybes’
And I believe that is the option being pursued.
And I support it.
What’s the alternative?
Another twenty years of rocket attacks, suicide bombings, stabbings, shootings and UN condemnation at every effort of Israeli self-defence?
Precisely ..
Israel is very tiny, surrounded by huge Muslim states: Create a "Palestine" from one of the Muslim countries. Israel deserves, and NEEDS, all of their land, intact. Not only for security but also because it is JEWISH land. Also, Israel will need the land as the New Middle East takes off and Israel--not America--becomes the protector and enforcer of the New Middle East. Israel will need more military installations, factories to supply weapons, population expansion, and again--security. If Israel isn't secure, ain't no one in the M.E. is going to be secure.
The arabs of gaza and the west bank are the same levant arabs that lived in the Ottoman area for hundreds of years .. the same levant arabs that were part of the British Mandated territory, of which 78% became Jordan .. Jordanian arabs are of the same cloth.
Israel must not give up strategic west bank, nor share Jerusalem as a capital.
Jordan in reality, is the second state of the two state solution.
yep, if Jordan wants ta lay down their beefs (Halal 'er otherwize) with the Pallies...by all means move 'em thar an' call it what'cha want--Jordanian Palestine 'er Middle Eastern Elbow... Israel should not cede the West Bank (meanin'fully Jooish AND strategic). Gaza, too, cain't be occupied by Jordanians, Pallies or (imho) Muslims as they all wanna kill da joos an' use it as a glide(er) strip like on them cheap razors--it's been tried already...notta plan.
Now if the beleaguered Druze were "given" Gaza I'd yell cHuzzah! (aka hooray--I tink they both sound the same mit Arab akcent anyway). Gaza is only significant ta Israel strategically so any "pals" (not pallies) livin' next door would be good neighbors (an' Israel duz not need the headache of managin' Gaza again).
ps okey, readin' the commints here (some thankfully above mah paygrade!) even Jordan absorbin' the pallies may not work....but anywhoo--West Bank stays with Israel, Gaza--not Muslims....as I said, Druze, Christian Arabs, etc. all a-ok
Any notion of a two state solution is dead and buried .. that ship sailed years ago.
yes, but there are STILL some folks pushing the idea.
Yes those pushing this stupid idea like Macron, Starmer, Carney, Putin or the Beta males leaders in Western Europe can welcome The "Palestinians" into their own countries.
Again - problem solved.
.. the foolish politicians have fallen for islamic expansion in their own back yards ..
Yuck
This is an interesting idea, but Dan is right about the likely ultimate outcome.
The “Palestinians” would never accept your notion of the “right of return,” because that makes zero sense. The land they want to “return” to is Israel, period. And they *were* once there. They left voluntarily, which they refuse to admit, but it actually was there. It’s not land per se that they want, it’s *that specific* land only.
Giving up the entire “West Bank” should never be considered an option by Israel, and likely would not be. It would render the country indefensible.
Jordan, regardless of the actual name, is highly unlikely to grant equal citizenship to the Jewish settlers, and the Palestinians would be even less inclined to do so. They are Muslim countries, and that is just simply not how Islam operates. You need to learn about how the Koran mandates treating anyone who refuses to convert to Islam - “infidels”, aka “kafirs,” - and about taqqiya and tawriya. *
At best* they would be regarded as “dhimmies” (second class citizens), required to pay a very high tax called “jizya,” and be limited in how they would be allowed to practice their religion.
Still, I like the creativity of your thinking, and I agree that a new, outside-the-box solution might be the only viable option.
Firstly in 1967 Israel would have been more than happy to give back the “West Bank” in exchange for recognition of Israel in the pre 1967 borders and peace. They didn’t want to take over 2 million Arabs which would have resulted in Israel being a predominantly Muslim country within a couple of generations. How do I know this? I was living there. A relative was a member of Begin’s Cabinet and I even discussed this with Begin himself. This could not work out because of the “River to the sea” mindset of the Palestinians and the ongoing attacks on Israel which is only 8 kilometers wide in its most populous areas.
Also Jordan will never accept the Palestinians despite they are originally the same tribe, religion and ethnic group. They have already, in the past, caused war and destruction in Jordan and the Jordanians hate them. It’s the same with all the other Arab countries. They pay lip service to the Palestinian cause but none of them want to allow them citizenship to instigate unrest and jihad in their own countries. It’s a terrible situation but until the Palestinians can undo the education and brainwashing of future generations these wars will continue. Look at the rest of the Middle East. For five thousand years or more, if they haven’t been killing the Jews they’ve been killing each other. America has only made things worse by all the wars we have instigated and then pulled out of causing damage and destruction that takes centuries to undo. What Americans don’t understand is that these people don’t want Democracy forced upon them particularly by capitalists of the military industrial complex, like Cheney, who start these wars to enrich their own pockets.
Now it may be even too late to save the western world which has been taken over by Islamists who believe we should all be living under Sharia law or it is their duty to murder us. The Judao/christian culture has been all but eradicated in Europe and America. We are in decline like the Roman Empire. Our only hope to continue civilization is for the Chinese to take over before the Islamists do!
Jordan is not to be trusted. King Abdullah's recent tirade against Israel at the UN reveals the true nature of the peace with Jordan, which has an anti-normalization committee that blackballs any rapprochement with Israel by any Jordanian professional. A Palestinian overwhelming majority in Jordan would tear the country apart and result in an armed threat against Israel worse than the PA. If any Arab country and especially Saudi Arabia were sincere in wanting peace with Israel it would seek it without attaching it to the Palestinian cause and boldly lead the Arab Muslim world to true peace with no strings attached instead of using the Palestinian cause as a stick with which to beat Israel up and fan the irredentist Palestinian mentality and Jew hatred endemic to the Arab Muslim world. Israel needs to extend sovereignty over Gaza, Judea and Samaria, lock down the "Palestinians" who live there and escort them out eventually. Egypt is a failed state rife with officially sponsored antisemitism, making the peace with Israel cold indeed and perennially dangerous, as exemplified by the Egyptian military build-up in the Sinai violating the peace treaty. Not to mention Turkey stirring things up constantly from afar. Israel can rely only on itself and its historic borders.
Jordan already has a Palestinian majority. Estimates vary, but 60% is a reasonable conjecture. If Jordan were to annex the West Bank and Gaza, it would be around 73% Palestinian. Why is a 60% Palestinian state an acceptable (if imperfect, as you rightly note) neighbor, while a 73% Palestinian state is untenable? Again, as stated in the article, Jordan already controlled the West Bank in the past. After it annexed the West Bank, Jordan was 2/3rds Palestinian, yet the monarchy held on, so we already have proof of concept for the idea.
As for your counter-proposal of escorting the Palestinians out, who will take them in? For that matter, are you confident that the Israeli army is able and willing to forcibly deport 5.5 million people? Are you also confident that Israel could survive the subsequent international isolation, which would be much worse than anything going on today?
One does not have to worry about who will take the Palestinians in, just as one should ignore the international reaction which is always suicidal for Israel. No Palestinian state west of the Jordan river is acceptable because it would be suicidal for Israel. Jordan cannot be relied upon any more than any Arab Muslim state can be relied upon to keep the peace and behave properly in the concert of nations. Look at how Abdullah currently lambastes Israel every chance he gets while depending on Israel to keep him afloat. The Muslims lie, bludgeon, betray; their word is worthless and so are the documents they sign going back to Mohammed who was an illiterate. By the way, Kuweit got rid of 350,000 Palestinians and no one bothered to ask who would take them in. Israel should pay back the Palestinians and their western allies in kind.
Agree, Jordan ain't no "pal" but Jordan's got 'bout 11mill population-wise--would 1.5-2 million unruly pallies tip the scales? It's a lotta "ref-fugue-geez" ta re-home so they gotta be absorbed somewhar... Fully agreed re Judea & Samaria, I'd be fine if Gaza wuz in any non-muslim hands--suggestin' Druze...
Too bad, it's THEIR people and the arabs should be responsible for them Why is it ok for Israel to have to live with 2 million unruly pallies but a non-starter for Jordan? Jordan has plenty of land, unlike Israel.
yep, good "pernt" they DO have enuf land to accommodate these "unrulies" without expandin' into Israeli terrytory (let a lone havin' it divided further as if it hasn't been broken already as if it was peanut brittle---er sesame brittle ;-)
Absolutely NOT! History has shown that the writer's thinking is in no way based on reality, or understanding of Arab mentality or frankly anything that has been going on for the past 75 years.
This is indeed a bold, new idea! I never heard this before, and it's certainly food for thought.
This conflict appears to many to be about land, and land is truly a focus of the indoctrination of the Arabs who call themselves “Palestinians,” but the crux of this conflict has always at its core been the Muslim rejection of Jewish sovereignty anywhere in the ME as, conveniently, once land is conquered by Islam it remains Islamic property. There is no land swap that will ever solve this problem. Our only hope is to stay strong and steadfast in knowing who we are and where we belong, and vow to never give away any land again as that will seal our destruction. They don’t need our land; they want us out and a victory for Islam. What would happen to the world’s Jews then? Our power and survival depend on our strength and resolve to stay put and hold tight.
This essay should have begun with, "Once upon a time. . ." It's too early in the morning for me for fairy tales.
Agreed, and then they'll all do the happy dance and sing kumbaya. The End.
Yes, Have some coffee, sir…
I’m living through the second instantiation of Balaam’s ass. For what it’s worth given the world sentiment turning against us perhaps we will have to live briefly with such an enemy. They undoubtedly will attack us and then by the grace of Hashem our second chance at Behoukhosai will happen our 5 will conquer their thousands. Something we all are going to hate is going to happen. God will provide.
Indeedy! OtherWISE put.... they sho'nuff seem ta be beatin' our Ass lately (ouch!) so I'm hopin' that we'll git ta the "zingin' our praises" part quick as our proverbial Ass is sore (an' whatta turrible beatin' poor Israel has been takin') That angel cain't appear soon enuf!
Amein…
Too much thinking while reading before my coffee but there is no statehood awarded to murderers who still have innocent, civilian hostages. Anyway, HaShem gave a detailed description of Gaza coastline property and it goes to Judah after He rids it of the inhabitants who soiled it. Judaea/Samaria are not negotiable. Cream and sugar?
Appreciate the out of the box thinking. But there are two basic problems:
1) The Pals are not interested in “a state.” They are interested in No Jewish state.
2) With a Palestinian majority, this new state would manifest this attitude.
Thank you. My responses in brief:
1) That's why the state will be ruled by the Hashemites of Jordan.
2) Jordan already has a Palestinian majority. Estimates vary, but 60% is a reasonable conjecture. If Jordan were to annex the West Bank and Gaza, it would be around 73% Palestinian. Why is a 60% Palestinian state an acceptable neighbor, but a 73% Palestinian state an automatic security threat?
Block the Philadelphi corridor.
Shut down UNRWA.
Then, hopefully soon, the fall of the mullahs in Iran and peace with Saudi Arabia will do the rest — to the point that your proposal of a moderate Jordan/Palestine might be viable.
Thank YOU. Three brief responses:
1) Once the state is called “Palestine,” Palestinianism will be boosted like never before, making quick order of the Hashemites. Not before long we’d see a rematch of 1970 — with a very different result.
2) The Pals of the W. Bank and Gaza are far more radical than their brethren in Jordan, making their entry into the body politic of Jordan revolutionary.
3) The Hashemite monarchy in Jordan know this, which is why they will never agree to your proposal.
In brief again:
1) So what do you do with "Palestinianism"? The dream of a number of commentators here seems to be that you move all of the Palestinians to Jordan and Egypt and hope that they forget about their identity in a few years. I find that much more unrealistic than anything I've proposed in the article. My alternative is that you merge "Palestinianism" with "Jordanianism" (or "Hashemitism") and forcibly redirect it in a pragmatic direction.
2) That may be so, but they all descend from the same group of people, so deradicalization is clearly possible. The less radical, longstanding Jordanian Palestinians could help deradicalize their brethren in the West Bank and Gaza. As could the secret police, of course.
3) No, they won't agree to my proposal. But they might agree to one backed by major Arab powers. The "Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine" was earlier proposed by Ali Shihabi, a confidante of MBS.
Nice idea. But when Arafat and his minions tried to murder Hussein, that possiblility was eliminated for good. Also keep in mind...this whole thing is not about finding a comfy home for the individual 'palestinian', it is about slaughtering Jews and bringing Israel under Muslim rule. Period.
Do you really believe this? Where have you been the last two years? Did the fact that October 7 occurred after Israel completely withdrew from gaza, including every single Jewish resident, convince the so-called "civilized" world that it was a clear-cut case of unprovoked aggression to which Israel had the right to fight back? Have the last two years failed to convince you that whatever barbaric atrocities the "palestinians" perpetrate against Israelis, the "civilized" world will still consider any Israeli response to be illegitimate? I guarantee you with 100% certainty, that should there ever be a state of "palestine" and should it attack Israel, the "civilized" world will still deny Israel's right of self-defense and that it will still be Israelis who get blamed and defamed as the aggressors once it strikes back.
I have a far better solution. Egypt and Jordan accept the arabs of Gaza and Judea-Samaria into their own nations respectively and Israel's borders extend from the river to the sea. Peace will only come when Israel has complete sovereignty over all of its land.
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"Moreover, the appearance of legitimacy matters. A Palestinian state attacking Israel — absent arguments about occupation, settlements, and apartheid — would be a clear-cut case of unprovoked aggression for most of the civilized world".
"I guarantee you with 100% certainty, that should there ever be a state of 'palestine' and should it attack Israel, the 'civilized' world will still deny Israel's right of self-defense and that it will still be Israelis who get blamed and defamed as the aggressors once it strikes back."
Yes, there are radical leftists and Islamists who will blame Israel in any circumstances. But that's not an excuse for nihilistic passivity. I used the qualifier "civilized" world for a reason. Israel still has agency and can alter the opinion of the persuadable middle through its actions. It's certainly done so under the current Netanyahu government, to its detriment.
"I have a far better solution. Egypt and Jordan accept the arabs of Gaza and Judea-Samaria into their own nations respectively and Israel's borders extend from the river to the sea."
Please elaborate as to how you will force Egypt and Jordan to accept 5.5 million Palestinians and why that is more realistic than my proposal.
You must be dreaming. There is a better chance of the craven king of Jordan converting to Judaism than agreeing to this. Next.
Nah. We gonna expel their asses to the Arab lands from whence they came.
Yessss!