Brooks wants his cake and eat it too. If you believe in the divinity of Jesus you are no longer a practicing Jew, you are a practicing Christian. Period. You may have Jewish genetic roots, as many of my friends are finding out through 23 and Me, but it does not mean you are part of Am Yisrael. Brooks has chosen to leave Judaism. That is of course his choice. He should grow up and admit it. But then again if he did that he couldn't Jew-wash his opinions on Israel, could he?
David Brooks is a mshumad an apostate to the Jewish faith and should be viewed as someone with no authority to speak on anything relating to Jewish tradition
Would this ‘serious examination’ necessarily include a grovelling apology for his ‘apostasy’ and a subsequent abrogation of anything not approved by the gatekeepers of ‘Jewish Tradition’?
No such groveling apology is required but what is required is a self examination and rethinking king of priorities That’s the major theme of the High Holidays which begins with recognizing God as King and then engaging in serious reconsideration of one’s priorities and goals in life
Perhaps you should take the opportunity to reorient yourself away from a worldview that brands those you disagree with as apostates and relegate such language to the days of stoning and blood sacrifice.
I think that you need to delve into whether stoning was ever carried out according
to Jewish law and the purpose of sacrifices as understood by classical Jewish commentators and the fact that even someone who publicly walks away from Judaism can change his world view before you voice your opinions on these issues
I really wish that Rabbi Tovya Singer, renown Orthodox Rabbi and savior of lost Jewish souls, would issue a rebuttal to Brooks. Interestingly, many of Singer's devotees are Christians who have either become B'nai Noah or converted to Judaism!
There is Jewish tradition and Christian tradition, both of which have added huge layers of tradition to the faith that was 1st envisioned and which has caused a schism so deep that both have come to reject the truth of each other and caused this belief that one cannot follow Jesus and still be a Jew who obeys the law as given on Mount Sinai to Moses.
Christians from gentile stock are not expected to follow the law given to the Jews, because they were not children of Abraham in the physical sense of the word. They weren’t part of the blessings and the curses nor the covenant.
The original apostles, tho followers of Jesus, still kept sabbath and obeyed the laws of Moses.
There is no doubt that they struggled with their identity after they were persecuted by the religious leaders of the time and how to teach the gentiles how to exercise a new faith separate from their formal idol worship. Their were so many uncertainties.
It seems to me that it’s a pity that Jewish tradition now rejects those of its own who struggle with the same issues. There are many Jewish Christians, followers of Jesus who truly believe he is the messiah. There are others who don’t. Why can’t there be discussions among Jews about the messiahship or not of Jesus without name calling and abuse? Why is a Jew who thinks/ believes a Jewish teacher is the messiah is castigated? Called an apostate etc? Is it just that church history has been so diabolical to Jews/ Israel or is there some other reason?
Put in very simple terms: To be an "authentic" Jew is to believe that Jesus was NOT the Messiah, and that Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come. As I joke with my Christian friends: "Your Second Coming will be our First Coming for the Messiah."
I am sorry, but there is no such thing as a Jewish Christian. You either believe in the divinity of Jesus or you do not. This issue was settled in Judaism over 2000 years ago. Jews do no see Jesus as divine. Full stop. Christians don't have the right to decide for the Jewish People differently then what they decide for themselves when it comes to the Jewish religion.
There is a sect called Messianic Judaism. They do believe that Jesus (Yeshua) was the Messiah of Israel and then he died to atone us for the sins of humanity.
Jesus was a Jew.
I have a problem with your idea of authentic “Jew”
You should never joke with your “Christian” friends about judaism.
Messianic Jews are not a sect of Judaism. They are christians. They are not part of the Jewish people.
I don’t care what you think of my idea of who is a Jew. Who is and is not a Jew is also not up to you whomever you are. the jewish People will decide who is and is not a Jew.
Believers in Jesus don’t get to decide who is and is not a Jew and what Jews can and cannot believe. Actual Jews will do that. The rabbis already spoke about this 2 thousand years ago. It was decided Jesus is not the messiah and we do not follow him as if he was. Once you believe in jesus as the messiah you are a Christian.
Don’t really care if Jesus would be ashamed of me. I think Jesus would be ashamed of you for denigrating Judaism the religion he loved, practiced and died defending. But you do you.
Jesus was not a god, as most Christians erroneously believe. It is more appropriate to see him as a guru. He was created in the image of God, like you, I and all other humans are. He showed humans an effective way to be closer to God. Love thy neighbour as yourself, because he, like you, is created in the image of God.
Germen, Jesus says he and the Father (God) are one, and made a number of similar claims. He is either what he says he is or he is a complete fraud. Rationally, he cannot be anything in between. It is for all to spiritually discern and rationally decide. Have a read of the 4 gospels of the B'rit Hadashah (New Testament) in conjunction with the Messianic texts of the Tanakh from the Jewish and Christian perspectives. Most importantly, ask God to show you the truth.
The other reason you suggest, Chrissy, is the threat of Excommunication. To Religious people, this fear together with the fear of Damnation in the Torture which is Hell, is very real. Religious psychopaths then use these fears wrongly and disgracefully to enhance their own power. We have seen this at work in the Military Services in The West. It is a disgrace, because Faith is a private matter which The State has no right to interfere with.
Here in the UK there is a very strong relationship between The Church and The State, after the Reformation: Official Religion. Most Primary schools here are Religiously run, with morning Prayers just after morning registration of pupils. This is also expected and required of Jews and our practice of Judaism. Some might say that a bit of Religion is better than none, but in reality this can become an access-strategy for unsavoury people who should be nowhere near Religion or young minds. I have had very unpleasant experiences of these people myself, both from the Evangelical Christian movement backed by the State itself, and the Jewish Religious Hierarchy. I am sorry if this sounds offensive to you if you are religious yourself. But what I say has been fully substantiated. This is what I mean when I say The State has no right to interfere in personal Faith.
That’s not what I suggested. It would be good to talk without anger or frustration. I do know Jewish believers in Jesus who follow Torah law because they are Jews. I get the impression that for many Jews, Christians are seen as evil and idolaters. And yet….shutting down discourse means there is never a chance to discuss differences or study together. The apostles never taught from the New Testament because it didn’t exist. They saw Jesus in the tanakh
I’m not angry or frustrated. I’m just stating a fact. Judaism dealt with the divinity of Jesus over 2000 years ago. Judaism rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Because there are some today who do not understand that, does not change Judaism. They can study Torah all they want. But once they accept Jesus as the Messiah they are Christian because they are the followers of the Christ. And learning Torah is something they teach in all Christian theology because it’s also known as the Old Testament. You can’t have the New Testament without the Old.
Do not get hung-up on the divinity of Jesus. The social message of Christ is just as important and laid the basis for civilized society, which we enjoy today. It would not have happened in The West without Him. This is reason enough for thanks. Is this Divinity? Jesus is therefore certainly (almost) high enough to reach the Divine because of what he achieved.
The divinity of Jesus among other things is what separates Judaism from Christianity. No one is disputing the message nor its impact on western civilization.
Jesus was the first Jewish Christian. You highlight Theological division where in reality, because of his social message, non exists. Also, Mercy and Forgiveness can be found in Judaism too.
Jesus was not a Christian in any way. Jesus was born and died a Jew. Christianity began as a sect of Judaism but it was started by Jesus’ apostles not Jesus. Yes, theological differences is what divides Judaism and Christianity
Jews needed rescue from their enemies, thus the messianic era. Imagine if there had been no invaders, no outside threat to the existence of their belief in God. I venture to say there would still be infighting. The Orthodox hate the Reform in the 21st century, no less in ancient days.
"There are many Jewish Christians, followers of Jesus who truly believe he is the messiah. There are others who don’t. Why can’t there be discussions among Jews about the messiahship or not of Jesus without name calling and abuse? Why is a Jew who thinks/ believes a Jewish teacher is the messiah is castigated? Called an apostate etc? Is it just that church history has been so diabolical to Jews/ Israel or is there some other reason?"
There were Jewish Christians 2000 years ago who held their allegiance to Torah and just so happened to believe that some dead dude was the messiah. There are none today (or at the most very few), because Paul's followers came to dominance and set the parameters of what a Christian is (i.e., someone who believes in the idolatrous doctrine of the Trinity). David Brooks does not claim to hold allegiance to Torah. Nor does he claim to go to a synagogue. Nor is he quoted as professing to hold adoptionist views like those of the Jewish Christians. Brooks is instead quoting as going to a church, a house of idol worship, frequently.
The Jewish religion has certain rules and laws. Compared to christianity we do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. That was settled over 2000 years ago. Once you believe in the divinity of Jesus you are a christian, you are no longer practicing the Jewish religion. There is a fine line and yes, the Jewish People have a right to decide how their religion is practiced and what it means to belong. Brooks evidently has taken himself out of Am Yisrael. That is his choice and that is one of the many freedoms here in the US.
This is not what I’m talking about. I am saying that one can decide to define himself which ever way he wishes. One can be born an ethnic Jew and decide to be a Christian. You are talking about theology. I’m not.
But the article was all about theology. Yes he can be born and raised a Jew, be ethnically Jewish and become a Christian. But the article is taking him to task for not doing that. He is still saying “as a Jew” when in fact he is a christian. Once you take yourself out of Am Yisrael, you no longer get to tell the Jewish People how to think, act, or what to believe.
Maybe I did not read it very closely, but I did not notice Brooks telling others how to believe or what Judaism should be for others. As I said, he can still say “as a Jew,” because he remains ethnically Jewish.
Are you saying one removes the matrilineage/patrilineage by accepting Christianity? I'm Norwegian by lineage, which makes me a Japhethite. If I used to believe in the Norse gods and the Tree of Norn, and then accept Judaism, Christianity, etc., Am I no longer Norwegian, or ethnically a Japhethite?
Strictly speaking, I think to be a Jew (Yuhudi), one must be able to trace their lineage to the tribe of Judah, and therefore, actually an ethnic Semite. We've only got three to choose from: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Or perhaps we could find mutual agreement in Noah - Noahites?
Are the Karaites not Jews because they reject Talmudic Judaism?
Are all "Jews", strictly speaking, from the tribe of Judah? Probably not but they all are able to trace lineage to Israel and perhaps one of the other tribes.
As a Gentile, I'm punching above my weight here, but if semantics are strictly adhered to, wouldn't the term practicing the Israelite Religion or Hebraic traditions be more accurate? The Tanakh was given to all Israel, non?
It seems then, if a Norwegian practices Taoism, that person is still a Norwegian and is a Japhethite.
Roza Luxemburg and Edith Stein never rejected the idea that they were born Jewish. They have not practiced Judaism though. There are many more examples of a similar nature. I’m not sure that Brooks is saying that he practices Judaism. Being born as a Jew, he might feel attracted to certain elements of Judaism, but obviously Judaism did not meet his spiritual or whatever he defines it expectations. I’m not trying to support or not support this position, I’m saying that it happens a lot. Throughout the history and continue now.
e.g. Brooks should QUALIFY any statements he makes “as a Jew” with some disclaimer such as “As a Jew, who currently accepts JC as his savior , this is my position…
Many, if nto millions of Jews in the US are ethnically jewish, do not care too much for Jewish practice, but do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. But Roza and Edith never said they believed in the gospel or that they thought Jesus was divine. Brooks does. That makes him a Christian. He can like parts of his Jewish heritage. That is his right. And it is his right to believe in Jesus’ divinity. But once you believe in the divinity of Jesus you are no longer a practicing Jew. And need to stop saying you are part of the Jewish people, because you are not
Rosa was an atheist, so it was not something she would be interested in considering. Edith, on the other hand., is a different issue, she became a nun Teresa Benedict of the Cross.
Yes, you can call her whatever way you wish, but SHE considered herself ethnically Jewish and, as I am sure you know, was killed in Auschwitz as a Jew. So what I’m saying is there is an outside definition (e.g., Jewish people defining other Jewish people) and the inside definition (e.g., Jewish people defining themselves). Whatever way we might decide define them is not going to change how they define themselves.
It was not settled 2000 years ago. There were Jewish Christians for centuries. The Jewish Christian communities begin to disappear from the historical record in the early centuries after the Roman Empire adopted Christianity. The issue is actually national in character dressed up as theological.
Judaism is rabbinic commentary on the Torah which is what Christianity essentially is. Many people said Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the Messiah, among others, nobody said they weren't Jewish.
After the Gentiles adopted Christianity they created a version of Judaism that was hostile to Jews, Jewish customs and traditions, and basically it became a version of Judaism for the Gentiles.
They were not Jewish Christians for centuries. They were Christian. Separate and distinct from Judaism by Jewish law and by Christian theology as well. Comparing it to the lubavitcha is ridiculous.
This isnt national character dressed up as theology. Not only do you not understand Judaism you don’t understand Christianity. You don’t understand the ancient world in which these 2 religions evolved.
The Jewish Christians observed Shabbat and all Jewish laws. The difference was that they believed Jesus was the Messiah. The European Christians hated them. How is that much different than the modern Haredim who believed Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the messiah
If you have a point to make then make it. Don't say you have no idea without making any point.
The first Christians were Jews. Christianity is based on the Torah. Other religions are not based on the Torah. For example, Hinduism is not commentary on the Torah.
The apostle Paul was a universalist, like many universalist Jews today and historically, for whom the most important belief is that there should be no such thing as nationalities and like Marx and others he attacked what he believed made the Jewish people unique and created what he believed would be the format for a world of universal "human beings."
This is evidenced by Paul's many statements to the effect of Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek...
Like communism, the gentiles simply took possession of Christianity, crossed lines that the universalists believe are somehow inviolate, and kicked the Jews out.
It is wonderful to be involved rather than committed. A lot less baggage. Mr. Brooks seems to be involved in his beliefs but not truly committed to any of them. But, to paraphrase for everyone an old joke, the difference between involvement and commitment is the difference between eggs and (turkey) bacon for breakfast. The chicken is involved, the turkey is committed.
90% of the so-called Jews in the United States are secular or atheist, which answers the question, why are most of the Jews Democrat, leftist, socialist, or communist? 🤨
In The Oslo Syndrome, Kenneth Levin wrote: "What motivates those Jews who are active in or align themselves with these various Israel-indicting bodies...?...a wish to believe, in the face of anti-Jewish pressures, that Jewish salvation can be obtained by the embrace of a wider identity of leftist acolyte and by Jewish self-reform and self-effacement in conformity with leftist tenets."
Kenneth Levin, The Oslo Syndrome, Delusions of a People Under Siege (2005) quoted in David Mamet's The Wicked Son (page 95).
Thank you! I have read that article, among others of his, and found it pretty confusing. Are you Jewish and can't defend it or are you Christian and just not willing to put yourself out there with that proclamation? I converted to Judaism, from Catholicism, after I found out my Dad's Mother was Jewish, a few years ago. Living with a Catholic can be challenging at times, esp at Christmas!, but I continue to proclaim my belonging to the tribe and follow the laws as best I
can. Brooks can have it any way he wants as far as I'm concerned but to his readers he really aught to be more forthcoming about what he speaks. To misquote Heschel is shameful as he, Heschel, knows of what he speaks.
Brooks is still a Jew. And he is still Jewish. If he decided to reject Christianity and return to Judaism fully, he would not have to convert. One cannot stop being a Jew. However, I agree that as a Christian who has rejected (by definition) the Jewish faith, he should not be writing about Judaism. At all.
Ruth, the foremother of king David, was a shiksa. According to genetic research, the foremothers of Ashkenazim were European non-Jews, i.e shiksas. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5380316/ Even goyim such as I know this. Happy to provide this little midrash. חנוכה שמח.
That was then, this is now. You trying to say his new wife is about to emerge as a super-Jewess to refresh his Yiddishkeit? There is zero comparison and anyway, David long ago lost any shred of his persona, which USED to be “rationally leaning conservative” to one more Manhattanite chattering class clown.
She seems to have made him from atheist into a theist, which is a win from a tenach point of view, and the task of a Jew: promoting ethical monotheism amongst the people.
It sounds to me like Brooks is having a conflict with his conscience and deservedly so. Brooks hasn't learned that you can't be a Christian and Jew at the same time. Yes, he was born a Jew, but other than that has no deep connection to his Judaism, so he needs to stop the pretense, go to church and pray to the stations of the cross. That might help to ease his conscience.
Brooks wants his cake and eat it too. If you believe in the divinity of Jesus you are no longer a practicing Jew, you are a practicing Christian. Period. You may have Jewish genetic roots, as many of my friends are finding out through 23 and Me, but it does not mean you are part of Am Yisrael. Brooks has chosen to leave Judaism. That is of course his choice. He should grow up and admit it. But then again if he did that he couldn't Jew-wash his opinions on Israel, could he?
David Brooks is a mshumad an apostate to the Jewish faith and should be viewed as someone with no authority to speak on anything relating to Jewish tradition
Or anything else.
Maybe he could be stoned to death?
No he could engage In serious examination of his Jewish roots rather than merely cite Jewish sources as an op Ed page writer with some influence
Would this ‘serious examination’ necessarily include a grovelling apology for his ‘apostasy’ and a subsequent abrogation of anything not approved by the gatekeepers of ‘Jewish Tradition’?
No such groveling apology is required but what is required is a self examination and rethinking king of priorities That’s the major theme of the High Holidays which begins with recognizing God as King and then engaging in serious reconsideration of one’s priorities and goals in life
Perhaps you should take the opportunity to reorient yourself away from a worldview that brands those you disagree with as apostates and relegate such language to the days of stoning and blood sacrifice.
I think that you need to delve into whether stoning was ever carried out according
to Jewish law and the purpose of sacrifices as understood by classical Jewish commentators and the fact that even someone who publicly walks away from Judaism can change his world view before you voice your opinions on these issues
You can post whatever opinions you want but you should not represent that they are representative of traditional Jewish values
I really wish that Rabbi Tovya Singer, renown Orthodox Rabbi and savior of lost Jewish souls, would issue a rebuttal to Brooks. Interestingly, many of Singer's devotees are Christians who have either become B'nai Noah or converted to Judaism!
There is Jewish tradition and Christian tradition, both of which have added huge layers of tradition to the faith that was 1st envisioned and which has caused a schism so deep that both have come to reject the truth of each other and caused this belief that one cannot follow Jesus and still be a Jew who obeys the law as given on Mount Sinai to Moses.
Christians from gentile stock are not expected to follow the law given to the Jews, because they were not children of Abraham in the physical sense of the word. They weren’t part of the blessings and the curses nor the covenant.
The original apostles, tho followers of Jesus, still kept sabbath and obeyed the laws of Moses.
There is no doubt that they struggled with their identity after they were persecuted by the religious leaders of the time and how to teach the gentiles how to exercise a new faith separate from their formal idol worship. Their were so many uncertainties.
It seems to me that it’s a pity that Jewish tradition now rejects those of its own who struggle with the same issues. There are many Jewish Christians, followers of Jesus who truly believe he is the messiah. There are others who don’t. Why can’t there be discussions among Jews about the messiahship or not of Jesus without name calling and abuse? Why is a Jew who thinks/ believes a Jewish teacher is the messiah is castigated? Called an apostate etc? Is it just that church history has been so diabolical to Jews/ Israel or is there some other reason?
Put in very simple terms: To be an "authentic" Jew is to believe that Jesus was NOT the Messiah, and that Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come. As I joke with my Christian friends: "Your Second Coming will be our First Coming for the Messiah."
Perhaps your "first coming" and our second coming will be "to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
Together.
I am sorry, but there is no such thing as a Jewish Christian. You either believe in the divinity of Jesus or you do not. This issue was settled in Judaism over 2000 years ago. Jews do no see Jesus as divine. Full stop. Christians don't have the right to decide for the Jewish People differently then what they decide for themselves when it comes to the Jewish religion.
There is a sect called Messianic Judaism. They do believe that Jesus (Yeshua) was the Messiah of Israel and then he died to atone us for the sins of humanity.
Jesus was a Jew.
I have a problem with your idea of authentic “Jew”
You should never joke with your “Christian” friends about judaism.
Jesus would be ashamed of you
You are correct.
I wasn’t ivy league schooled. I’m not a very good communicator.
I do believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
Jews are still waiting.
But it pains me when people calling themselves christians, don’t behave that way.
Christian friends laughing?
Messianic Jews are not a sect of Judaism. They are christians. They are not part of the Jewish people.
I don’t care what you think of my idea of who is a Jew. Who is and is not a Jew is also not up to you whomever you are. the jewish People will decide who is and is not a Jew.
Believers in Jesus don’t get to decide who is and is not a Jew and what Jews can and cannot believe. Actual Jews will do that. The rabbis already spoke about this 2 thousand years ago. It was decided Jesus is not the messiah and we do not follow him as if he was. Once you believe in jesus as the messiah you are a Christian.
Don’t really care if Jesus would be ashamed of me. I think Jesus would be ashamed of you for denigrating Judaism the religion he loved, practiced and died defending. But you do you.
Jesus was not a god, as most Christians erroneously believe. It is more appropriate to see him as a guru. He was created in the image of God, like you, I and all other humans are. He showed humans an effective way to be closer to God. Love thy neighbour as yourself, because he, like you, is created in the image of God.
Germen, Jesus says he and the Father (God) are one, and made a number of similar claims. He is either what he says he is or he is a complete fraud. Rationally, he cannot be anything in between. It is for all to spiritually discern and rationally decide. Have a read of the 4 gospels of the B'rit Hadashah (New Testament) in conjunction with the Messianic texts of the Tanakh from the Jewish and Christian perspectives. Most importantly, ask God to show you the truth.
The other reason you suggest, Chrissy, is the threat of Excommunication. To Religious people, this fear together with the fear of Damnation in the Torture which is Hell, is very real. Religious psychopaths then use these fears wrongly and disgracefully to enhance their own power. We have seen this at work in the Military Services in The West. It is a disgrace, because Faith is a private matter which The State has no right to interfere with.
I agree with you. Thank you
What does "The State" have to do with this discussion?
Here in the UK there is a very strong relationship between The Church and The State, after the Reformation: Official Religion. Most Primary schools here are Religiously run, with morning Prayers just after morning registration of pupils. This is also expected and required of Jews and our practice of Judaism. Some might say that a bit of Religion is better than none, but in reality this can become an access-strategy for unsavoury people who should be nowhere near Religion or young minds. I have had very unpleasant experiences of these people myself, both from the Evangelical Christian movement backed by the State itself, and the Jewish Religious Hierarchy. I am sorry if this sounds offensive to you if you are religious yourself. But what I say has been fully substantiated. This is what I mean when I say The State has no right to interfere in personal Faith.
That’s not what I suggested. It would be good to talk without anger or frustration. I do know Jewish believers in Jesus who follow Torah law because they are Jews. I get the impression that for many Jews, Christians are seen as evil and idolaters. And yet….shutting down discourse means there is never a chance to discuss differences or study together. The apostles never taught from the New Testament because it didn’t exist. They saw Jesus in the tanakh
I’m not angry or frustrated. I’m just stating a fact. Judaism dealt with the divinity of Jesus over 2000 years ago. Judaism rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Because there are some today who do not understand that, does not change Judaism. They can study Torah all they want. But once they accept Jesus as the Messiah they are Christian because they are the followers of the Christ. And learning Torah is something they teach in all Christian theology because it’s also known as the Old Testament. You can’t have the New Testament without the Old.
Do not get hung-up on the divinity of Jesus. The social message of Christ is just as important and laid the basis for civilized society, which we enjoy today. It would not have happened in The West without Him. This is reason enough for thanks. Is this Divinity? Jesus is therefore certainly (almost) high enough to reach the Divine because of what he achieved.
The divinity of Jesus among other things is what separates Judaism from Christianity. No one is disputing the message nor its impact on western civilization.
Jesus was the first Jewish Christian. You highlight Theological division where in reality, because of his social message, non exists. Also, Mercy and Forgiveness can be found in Judaism too.
Jesus was not a Christian in any way. Jesus was born and died a Jew. Christianity began as a sect of Judaism but it was started by Jesus’ apostles not Jesus. Yes, theological differences is what divides Judaism and Christianity
Jews needed rescue from their enemies, thus the messianic era. Imagine if there had been no invaders, no outside threat to the existence of their belief in God. I venture to say there would still be infighting. The Orthodox hate the Reform in the 21st century, no less in ancient days.
"There are many Jewish Christians, followers of Jesus who truly believe he is the messiah. There are others who don’t. Why can’t there be discussions among Jews about the messiahship or not of Jesus without name calling and abuse? Why is a Jew who thinks/ believes a Jewish teacher is the messiah is castigated? Called an apostate etc? Is it just that church history has been so diabolical to Jews/ Israel or is there some other reason?"
There were Jewish Christians 2000 years ago who held their allegiance to Torah and just so happened to believe that some dead dude was the messiah. There are none today (or at the most very few), because Paul's followers came to dominance and set the parameters of what a Christian is (i.e., someone who believes in the idolatrous doctrine of the Trinity). David Brooks does not claim to hold allegiance to Torah. Nor does he claim to go to a synagogue. Nor is he quoted as professing to hold adoptionist views like those of the Jewish Christians. Brooks is instead quoting as going to a church, a house of idol worship, frequently.
Someone reads David Brooks? Who knew?
In the United States, one can be ethnically Jewish and religiously none Jewish. I’m not sure we can tell people how to call themselves.
The Jewish religion has certain rules and laws. Compared to christianity we do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. That was settled over 2000 years ago. Once you believe in the divinity of Jesus you are a christian, you are no longer practicing the Jewish religion. There is a fine line and yes, the Jewish People have a right to decide how their religion is practiced and what it means to belong. Brooks evidently has taken himself out of Am Yisrael. That is his choice and that is one of the many freedoms here in the US.
This is not what I’m talking about. I am saying that one can decide to define himself which ever way he wishes. One can be born an ethnic Jew and decide to be a Christian. You are talking about theology. I’m not.
But the article was all about theology. Yes he can be born and raised a Jew, be ethnically Jewish and become a Christian. But the article is taking him to task for not doing that. He is still saying “as a Jew” when in fact he is a christian. Once you take yourself out of Am Yisrael, you no longer get to tell the Jewish People how to think, act, or what to believe.
Maybe I did not read it very closely, but I did not notice Brooks telling others how to believe or what Judaism should be for others. As I said, he can still say “as a Jew,” because he remains ethnically Jewish.
And I am saying, and the article is saying, he cannot say “as a Jew” because he has taken himself out of the Jewish People by becoming a Christian.
We are going in circles.
Are you saying one removes the matrilineage/patrilineage by accepting Christianity? I'm Norwegian by lineage, which makes me a Japhethite. If I used to believe in the Norse gods and the Tree of Norn, and then accept Judaism, Christianity, etc., Am I no longer Norwegian, or ethnically a Japhethite?
Strictly speaking, I think to be a Jew (Yuhudi), one must be able to trace their lineage to the tribe of Judah, and therefore, actually an ethnic Semite. We've only got three to choose from: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Or perhaps we could find mutual agreement in Noah - Noahites?
Are the Karaites not Jews because they reject Talmudic Judaism?
Are all "Jews", strictly speaking, from the tribe of Judah? Probably not but they all are able to trace lineage to Israel and perhaps one of the other tribes.
As a Gentile, I'm punching above my weight here, but if semantics are strictly adhered to, wouldn't the term practicing the Israelite Religion or Hebraic traditions be more accurate? The Tanakh was given to all Israel, non?
It seems then, if a Norwegian practices Taoism, that person is still a Norwegian and is a Japhethite.
Roza Luxemburg and Edith Stein never rejected the idea that they were born Jewish. They have not practiced Judaism though. There are many more examples of a similar nature. I’m not sure that Brooks is saying that he practices Judaism. Being born as a Jew, he might feel attracted to certain elements of Judaism, but obviously Judaism did not meet his spiritual or whatever he defines it expectations. I’m not trying to support or not support this position, I’m saying that it happens a lot. Throughout the history and continue now.
How about some full disclosure requirements …
e.g. Brooks should QUALIFY any statements he makes “as a Jew” with some disclaimer such as “As a Jew, who currently accepts JC as his savior , this is my position…
Many, if nto millions of Jews in the US are ethnically jewish, do not care too much for Jewish practice, but do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. But Roza and Edith never said they believed in the gospel or that they thought Jesus was divine. Brooks does. That makes him a Christian. He can like parts of his Jewish heritage. That is his right. And it is his right to believe in Jesus’ divinity. But once you believe in the divinity of Jesus you are no longer a practicing Jew. And need to stop saying you are part of the Jewish people, because you are not
Rosa was an atheist, so it was not something she would be interested in considering. Edith, on the other hand., is a different issue, she became a nun Teresa Benedict of the Cross.
Then Edith is no longer Jewish. She is considered an apostate.
Yes, you can call her whatever way you wish, but SHE considered herself ethnically Jewish and, as I am sure you know, was killed in Auschwitz as a Jew. So what I’m saying is there is an outside definition (e.g., Jewish people defining other Jewish people) and the inside definition (e.g., Jewish people defining themselves). Whatever way we might decide define them is not going to change how they define themselves.
It was not settled 2000 years ago. There were Jewish Christians for centuries. The Jewish Christian communities begin to disappear from the historical record in the early centuries after the Roman Empire adopted Christianity. The issue is actually national in character dressed up as theological.
Judaism is rabbinic commentary on the Torah which is what Christianity essentially is. Many people said Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the Messiah, among others, nobody said they weren't Jewish.
After the Gentiles adopted Christianity they created a version of Judaism that was hostile to Jews, Jewish customs and traditions, and basically it became a version of Judaism for the Gentiles.
They were not Jewish Christians for centuries. They were Christian. Separate and distinct from Judaism by Jewish law and by Christian theology as well. Comparing it to the lubavitcha is ridiculous.
This isnt national character dressed up as theology. Not only do you not understand Judaism you don’t understand Christianity. You don’t understand the ancient world in which these 2 religions evolved.
The Jewish Christians observed Shabbat and all Jewish laws. The difference was that they believed Jesus was the Messiah. The European Christians hated them. How is that much different than the modern Haredim who believed Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the messiah
You have no idea what you are talking about.
If you have a point to make then make it. Don't say you have no idea without making any point.
The first Christians were Jews. Christianity is based on the Torah. Other religions are not based on the Torah. For example, Hinduism is not commentary on the Torah.
The apostle Paul was a universalist, like many universalist Jews today and historically, for whom the most important belief is that there should be no such thing as nationalities and like Marx and others he attacked what he believed made the Jewish people unique and created what he believed would be the format for a world of universal "human beings."
This is evidenced by Paul's many statements to the effect of Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek...
Like communism, the gentiles simply took possession of Christianity, crossed lines that the universalists believe are somehow inviolate, and kicked the Jews out.
It is wonderful to be involved rather than committed. A lot less baggage. Mr. Brooks seems to be involved in his beliefs but not truly committed to any of them. But, to paraphrase for everyone an old joke, the difference between involvement and commitment is the difference between eggs and (turkey) bacon for breakfast. The chicken is involved, the turkey is committed.
90% of the so-called Jews in the United States are secular or atheist, which answers the question, why are most of the Jews Democrat, leftist, socialist, or communist? 🤨
https://substack.com/@thinktorah/note/c-76043773
In The Oslo Syndrome, Kenneth Levin wrote: "What motivates those Jews who are active in or align themselves with these various Israel-indicting bodies...?...a wish to believe, in the face of anti-Jewish pressures, that Jewish salvation can be obtained by the embrace of a wider identity of leftist acolyte and by Jewish self-reform and self-effacement in conformity with leftist tenets."
Kenneth Levin, The Oslo Syndrome, Delusions of a People Under Siege (2005) quoted in David Mamet's The Wicked Son (page 95).
“About 10 years ago, New York Times columnist David Brooks began writing about his own “faith journey,’”
About ten years ago, his writing turned into mush and I lost interest.
Thank you! I have read that article, among others of his, and found it pretty confusing. Are you Jewish and can't defend it or are you Christian and just not willing to put yourself out there with that proclamation? I converted to Judaism, from Catholicism, after I found out my Dad's Mother was Jewish, a few years ago. Living with a Catholic can be challenging at times, esp at Christmas!, but I continue to proclaim my belonging to the tribe and follow the laws as best I
can. Brooks can have it any way he wants as far as I'm concerned but to his readers he really aught to be more forthcoming about what he speaks. To misquote Heschel is shameful as he, Heschel, knows of what he speaks.
Brooks is still a Jew. And he is still Jewish. If he decided to reject Christianity and return to Judaism fully, he would not have to convert. One cannot stop being a Jew. However, I agree that as a Christian who has rejected (by definition) the Jewish faith, he should not be writing about Judaism. At all.
Exactly. Ditched his wife for a shiksa.
Ruth, the foremother of king David, was a shiksa. According to genetic research, the foremothers of Ashkenazim were European non-Jews, i.e shiksas. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5380316/ Even goyim such as I know this. Happy to provide this little midrash. חנוכה שמח.
Ruth is the prototype of all converts
No description in the Bible of her conversion. Just saying “Your God shall be my God” doesn’t quite amount to conversion.
That was then, this is now. You trying to say his new wife is about to emerge as a super-Jewess to refresh his Yiddishkeit? There is zero comparison and anyway, David long ago lost any shred of his persona, which USED to be “rationally leaning conservative” to one more Manhattanite chattering class clown.
I’m embarrassed he’s a fellow alumnus.
Your midrash isn’t one.
She seems to have made him from atheist into a theist, which is a win from a tenach point of view, and the task of a Jew: promoting ethical monotheism amongst the people.
The Christian fallacy of the Trinity, of course, needs to be corrected. There are Unitarian Christians, so this is perfectly possible. The views of Pinchas Lapide might be of interest to you. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/review/the-resurrection-of-jesus/
The Rabbis of the Talmud explain the details if Ruth’s conversion
A jew is a jew no matter what other meshuggas he embraces. Bob Dylan also went through a Xian phase and recovered quite nicely
https://marlowe1.substack.com/p/the-summer-farmer-the-stories-of
It sounds to me like Brooks is having a conflict with his conscience and deservedly so. Brooks hasn't learned that you can't be a Christian and Jew at the same time. Yes, he was born a Jew, but other than that has no deep connection to his Judaism, so he needs to stop the pretense, go to church and pray to the stations of the cross. That might help to ease his conscience.
He’s still Jewish enough for any real anti-Semites (as opposed to the ones my father saw under the bed, or do I mean in the bed?)