Thinking about it historically, Israel used to have the 1967 borders. Which, as I understand it, would be Israel without the borders of a Palestinian state. Israel was content with 1967 borders. The Arabs wanted war. Seems very unlikely that returning that land will make anyone happier than they were pre-1967.
The disengagement from Gaza did not produce peace or even the end of terrorism.
Hard to explain what would happen to make Palestinians happy with a state. There is no precedent for Palestinians happily accepting anything ever. There’s no rational reason to believe it would happen in the future.
I read accounts of the early Palestinian mandate in which the British and others concluded that neither the Arab or Jewish Palestinians were at all ready for their respective nations. By 1947, they had given up on the Mandate and proposed a partition, that would hopefully lead to a two state solution.
Of course, there were no distinct Palestinian Arabs at the time, and the Arab world utterly rejected the entire concept of a Palestinian state. After 1967, the Arab world and the UN wanted the Palestinian refugees to return to a mythical lost homeland, mostly to keep them contained and dependent on the UN and hating Israel for the UN and Arab world's manipulation and broken promises. So, as you wrote, a Palestinian "national identity" was created, with the help of the KGB, in the 1980s to continue the charade and keep the region in turmoil.
Nut the "Palestinian People" were no more capable of self-government, given the tremendous influences, competitions, and factions of the Arab League, Russia, Iran, etc., than it was in 1920's.
The Palestinian territory governance was never up to Palestinians, but followed the traditional cleptocratic, clan-based and tribal, and corrupt franchise model of the Caliphates, suvordinate to its major sponsors and arms suppliers, who were often at war with each other.
Thus, the kind of Palestinian statehood that could emerge was never one that could live alongside of Israel. It is inconceivable that it could become a sovereign state and conduct relations with the West on its own. The UN embedded itself in the region so that it, too, became a major tool for the Arab nations seeking to dominate it.
The deranged notion of the UN and the West, that Fatah could govern all Palestinian territories in the interests of the Palestinian people was the same wholly unreasonable and culturally ignorant and arrogant fantasy that led to the mass destruction of the Middle East, the Arab Spring, and the rise of Islamic States and Iranian proxies.
By analogy, and in no way referring to Palestinian people or Muslims, the Pit Bull may not be inherently violent and unmanageable species. However, if it is systemically abused and deprived, the result is predictable.
People can be systemically abused, deceived, and manipulated, also. It doesn't matter whether the abuse comes from its friends, it enemies, or the United Nations. European and other nations have been sucking up to the Arab world and Islam, for many generations, compering with each
other for deals and advantages. The excessively complex nature of the Middle East is beyond the West's understanding, even if they were all on the same page and Russia and China weren't striving to destabilize it all.
Congratulations to Joshua Hoffman for tackling the big issues we are all facing due to the gross oversimplifications that pass as wisdom and critical thinking these days.
Rabbi Wolpe should spend some time with our IDF soldiers in Gaza, watch the videos of the Oct 7 atrocities and then re-think his statements. Or has wokeness completely befuddled him? I hope not.
Magic formulas are entertaining mostly for children who have not yet learned about the reality of war and the weight of the world, and thus, are usually found in children's books. What does this say about the world of "grown ups"? Maybe it has yet to grow up?
It took me just a few days to abandon social media after Oct 7th because I was so disgusted to realize it had become like a kindergarten of out of control bad children causing absolute chaos, and trying at any cost to manipulate the narrative and further weaken the real victims with brutal psychological violence. Instead, I chose to read articles from intelligent people like you and listen to the IDF live briefings. I share privately now too.
We need to build our collective strength (like grown-ups) and do the hard work together. Don't get me wrong though, I believe in prayer and positive thinking, as it's a balm for the wounded heart, (call it magic if you want), but the wounds are real so seeking a silver lining to avoid this horrible pain helps no one, especially the narrative. To bypass the ugly pain and jump to a happy-ever-after ending is completely unrealistic and irresponsible. Certainly, the inner child in us would love that, but we cannot give such a burden to children to solve.
So it's time to send the bad children to sit in the corner to do their homework. The good children need safety, and the massive problem we are facing needs to be carried and resolved by intelligent and educated adults who know how to tread such a complex and delicate situation.
Perhaps it might be useful for him to read Jeffrey Herf's latest book. He is very lucid and gives a great analysis that challenges the idea of "magic formula." Of course, all of us want to believe that this is so simple ("That's all it takes" ) and there is a "magic formula." But I'm afraid we will be sleepwalking.
Another thought provoking essay, Joshua. And very, very good comments as well. This American is increasingly frustrated by my government’s meddling and pressure on Israel for a two state solution. It’s as if a peace “deal” brokered by the US (at least they would try to claim credit for it) would achieve multiple objectives, not the least of which would be placating the radical Left and gaining an election campaign cap feather for the Biden administration. But that’s not what Israel needs from the US.
I’m no expert, just someone with an interest in social and political geography, international studies, and national security issues. And very passionately pro Israel, which has enough problems fighting Hamas as well as other multi state actors (Iran) in an incipient regional war, agonizing over the fate of the remaining hostages, dealing with internal political conflicts as well as hundreds of thousands of displaced Israeli refugees, and a myriad other concerns.
The US must recognize and fight the war it’s already in by protecting the sea lanes and its bases in the Middle East, ensuring Israel has the weapons and ammunition to fight a multi front conflict, and using its power to pressure the UN and International Red Cross to free the hostages NOW.
Good leaders become great leaders when they do the right things at the right time.
Thinking about it historically, Israel used to have the 1967 borders. Which, as I understand it, would be Israel without the borders of a Palestinian state. Israel was content with 1967 borders. The Arabs wanted war. Seems very unlikely that returning that land will make anyone happier than they were pre-1967.
The disengagement from Gaza did not produce peace or even the end of terrorism.
Hard to explain what would happen to make Palestinians happy with a state. There is no precedent for Palestinians happily accepting anything ever. There’s no rational reason to believe it would happen in the future.
I read accounts of the early Palestinian mandate in which the British and others concluded that neither the Arab or Jewish Palestinians were at all ready for their respective nations. By 1947, they had given up on the Mandate and proposed a partition, that would hopefully lead to a two state solution.
Of course, there were no distinct Palestinian Arabs at the time, and the Arab world utterly rejected the entire concept of a Palestinian state. After 1967, the Arab world and the UN wanted the Palestinian refugees to return to a mythical lost homeland, mostly to keep them contained and dependent on the UN and hating Israel for the UN and Arab world's manipulation and broken promises. So, as you wrote, a Palestinian "national identity" was created, with the help of the KGB, in the 1980s to continue the charade and keep the region in turmoil.
Nut the "Palestinian People" were no more capable of self-government, given the tremendous influences, competitions, and factions of the Arab League, Russia, Iran, etc., than it was in 1920's.
The Palestinian territory governance was never up to Palestinians, but followed the traditional cleptocratic, clan-based and tribal, and corrupt franchise model of the Caliphates, suvordinate to its major sponsors and arms suppliers, who were often at war with each other.
Thus, the kind of Palestinian statehood that could emerge was never one that could live alongside of Israel. It is inconceivable that it could become a sovereign state and conduct relations with the West on its own. The UN embedded itself in the region so that it, too, became a major tool for the Arab nations seeking to dominate it.
The deranged notion of the UN and the West, that Fatah could govern all Palestinian territories in the interests of the Palestinian people was the same wholly unreasonable and culturally ignorant and arrogant fantasy that led to the mass destruction of the Middle East, the Arab Spring, and the rise of Islamic States and Iranian proxies.
By analogy, and in no way referring to Palestinian people or Muslims, the Pit Bull may not be inherently violent and unmanageable species. However, if it is systemically abused and deprived, the result is predictable.
People can be systemically abused, deceived, and manipulated, also. It doesn't matter whether the abuse comes from its friends, it enemies, or the United Nations. European and other nations have been sucking up to the Arab world and Islam, for many generations, compering with each
other for deals and advantages. The excessively complex nature of the Middle East is beyond the West's understanding, even if they were all on the same page and Russia and China weren't striving to destabilize it all.
Congratulations to Joshua Hoffman for tackling the big issues we are all facing due to the gross oversimplifications that pass as wisdom and critical thinking these days.
Rabbi Wolpe should spend some time with our IDF soldiers in Gaza, watch the videos of the Oct 7 atrocities and then re-think his statements. Or has wokeness completely befuddled him? I hope not.
Magic formulas are entertaining mostly for children who have not yet learned about the reality of war and the weight of the world, and thus, are usually found in children's books. What does this say about the world of "grown ups"? Maybe it has yet to grow up?
It took me just a few days to abandon social media after Oct 7th because I was so disgusted to realize it had become like a kindergarten of out of control bad children causing absolute chaos, and trying at any cost to manipulate the narrative and further weaken the real victims with brutal psychological violence. Instead, I chose to read articles from intelligent people like you and listen to the IDF live briefings. I share privately now too.
We need to build our collective strength (like grown-ups) and do the hard work together. Don't get me wrong though, I believe in prayer and positive thinking, as it's a balm for the wounded heart, (call it magic if you want), but the wounds are real so seeking a silver lining to avoid this horrible pain helps no one, especially the narrative. To bypass the ugly pain and jump to a happy-ever-after ending is completely unrealistic and irresponsible. Certainly, the inner child in us would love that, but we cannot give such a burden to children to solve.
So it's time to send the bad children to sit in the corner to do their homework. The good children need safety, and the massive problem we are facing needs to be carried and resolved by intelligent and educated adults who know how to tread such a complex and delicate situation.
Perhaps it might be useful for him to read Jeffrey Herf's latest book. He is very lucid and gives a great analysis that challenges the idea of "magic formula." Of course, all of us want to believe that this is so simple ("That's all it takes" ) and there is a "magic formula." But I'm afraid we will be sleepwalking.
Another thought provoking essay, Joshua. And very, very good comments as well. This American is increasingly frustrated by my government’s meddling and pressure on Israel for a two state solution. It’s as if a peace “deal” brokered by the US (at least they would try to claim credit for it) would achieve multiple objectives, not the least of which would be placating the radical Left and gaining an election campaign cap feather for the Biden administration. But that’s not what Israel needs from the US.
I’m no expert, just someone with an interest in social and political geography, international studies, and national security issues. And very passionately pro Israel, which has enough problems fighting Hamas as well as other multi state actors (Iran) in an incipient regional war, agonizing over the fate of the remaining hostages, dealing with internal political conflicts as well as hundreds of thousands of displaced Israeli refugees, and a myriad other concerns.
The US must recognize and fight the war it’s already in by protecting the sea lanes and its bases in the Middle East, ensuring Israel has the weapons and ammunition to fight a multi front conflict, and using its power to pressure the UN and International Red Cross to free the hostages NOW.
Good leaders become great leaders when they do the right things at the right time.
This is eye opening! Individuals with absolutely no knowledge at all, taking over a situation! Disasterous!