“Israel has made many mistakes and performed actions I am ashamed of.” I have heard this line repeated often. What are these “many mistakes” that Israel has made and what, aside from surrendering Gush Katif, do you have to be ashamed of? I would really like to understand this.
So sad to read this article. To even ask the question tells me that the writer, even though native Israeli, does not understand what Israel is about. To suggest that a government with which the writer strongly disagrees can be a valid reason to leave makes clear that the writer has no belief that the democratic process can make a difference. Further, it shows that the Land is not valued more highly than the ideological 'values' of the writer, and these are the 'values' being conveyed to the writer's children! If for such ideas one would willingly cut oneself off from Israel, by leaving, then would it not be a good idea for the writer to either radically change or to pack up and leave now? Why wait? Israel will be stronger morally, ethically, ideologically and certainly militarily if we all rally as one, believing in our Torah heritage, and most importantly in our heavenly Commander of Armies. Those who are more comfortable with the value systems of Europe and America should go there, and enjoy the ways of life and comfort that they prefer. The Land is for those who truly value its 3,500 year old heritage.
So like, if the Neturi Karta take over the government and we start slaughtering animals on the Temple Mount and women are stoned to death for being suspected of adultery bc she doesn’t pass the test of drinking the bitter waters (whatever the f*** that means), you’ll still want to be Israeli?
I think there's a much better vision for Israel than the extremist drivel from religious fanatics and the extremist drivel from fanatics on the political left.
I understand that but I’m making a point. We can’t pretend that the intentions of thousands of people don’t exist. I’m not really only talking about Neturi Karta, I am talking about people who legit speak about Amalek, who sound no better than Jihadists, and it’s way more than 10 (and they are having way more kids). The commenter writes “to even ask the question…” and goes off on a tirade as though the issue doesn’t even exist? Come on.
I'm not Orthodox but I study Judaism from Chabad writings (which are Orthodox). I've read articles from Chabad rabbis who interpret "Amalek" not in the literal way but in the spiritual way, to fight the "Amalek" within US. Yes, there is a general directive in Judaism about rising up to kill those who would kill us. Good, solid common sense to me. Amalek does symbolize the quintessential Jewish enemy. And while it might not be “good PR” for religious Jews to use Amalak as a call to action, we must act to eliminate the barbaric culture within our midst or we will be destroyed. It’s time to stop worrying about Israel’s “image” to the world. Our good-guy image didn’t get us anywhere. The Red/Green Alliance* did an excellent job buying politicians, academics, media and other influencers to lie and mislead for its own goals. And I wouldn’t worry about a majority of Israelis getting behind floggings, stonings and other barbaric punishments which were deemed appropriate in biblical times. Worry more about misguided peaceniks leading us to destruction because the Islamist dogma that informs Palestinians is totally incompatible with Israel’s liberal democracy and Judaism’s emphasis on caring for our fellows. Even when the last Hamas terrorist is dead, most Palestinian civilians will be controlled by the barbaric Mullahs and Imams in their midst. *For info about the Red/Green Alliance read Mike Cote’s article at: https://providencemag.com/2023/11/the-new-red-green-alliance-1/
Do you actually believe that Israeli scientists are missing out on research grants because of their right wing government? If so you are wrong. It’s anti-semitism pure and simple. Jew haters have twisted Israeli self defense after the bloodiest massacre since the Holocaust into a “genocide.” And you are giving legitimacy to this slander. Israel had a left wing government that bent over backwards to give the Palestinians “dignity” by offering up everything they could possibly hope for. That was met by an intifada. But if only the nasty settlers would t attack aid trucks everything would be fine. Meanwhile enormous amounts of aid has been delivered to Gaza. You are fooling yourself if you thing changing the government will make a bit of difference.
I’m almost speechless. I’ve lived through both Lebanon wars, 2 or 3 intifadas (lost count), the Gulf War, 2014 when the three boys were kidnapped. I, too, have American citizenship. I have never once thought of leaving. Maybe when people became violent on Yom Kippur of this year—not letting Jews pray on the holiest day of the year- maybe that was one day when the thought arose, “Oh dear, what destruction this has caused,” but to leave? We are resilient.
"that dignity for Palestinians will lead to dignity for Israelis"
We saw how dignified the Palestinians are on Oct 7, abusing Jewish children they had kidnapped before the cameras, desecrating the bodies of young women they had raped, tortured and murdered, celebrating the families they burned alive while Palestinians watched, eating snacks.
Oct 7 showed once and forever these are not people capable of human dignity. The only way for a dignified life for Israelis is a return to pre-1967 with Gaza: completely sealed border with Israel, all external interaction through Egypt only, devastating force on any attempts to cross the Israeli border.
May Gaza live in utter destitution forever more while Israel's high-tech economy powers ahead.
Perish the thought, and if you flee, do you think that the Sick Mobs in Sydney , Toronto NYC, will just say eh thats it,we fucked up Israel, job well done, dont have to kill any more Jews?
Stay Strong, Israel! We are not alone. The War for all Nations and The High living standards of our Nations is an ETERNAL WAR. I have said this before and I will say this again, ALL the Protestant Countries of The West are as embattled in this respect as Israel is. Nationhood is HARD! And this is true for all of us. These Wars are Forever Wars therefore. Get used it! I have. Sacrifice of the Blood, and of Morality when Survival can mean Fighting to the Death, are Universals and form the Fundamental Principles of Nationhood, true for both Israel and the Nations of The West. So, I have thus just shown, We are NOT ALONE! So Stand strong as a fine Nation, Israel! We have lasted 3000 years and counting! A fine country of a Fine People, The Jewish People. God Bless!
The "worst"is actions of a government and delusional people who say "Give the Arabs 1/2 of our G-d given Holy Land and everything will be quiet and peaceful". You are correct- the enemy is within. Isreal is meant to be a Holy land and not like the other nations. Yes and if Ben Gvir will become Defense Minister you won't have thousands of Jew-hating Arabs terrorizing us. Bait Shlishi will be for a holy lifestyle.
Thanks for publishing this Joshua. I like to read other perspectives especially from Israelis. Before October 7th, I would have resonated with much of what this rabbi says since I have always been a liberal American Jew. But October 7th "woke up" many of us to exactly what Israel is dealing with on its borders. Watching hundreds of ordinary Gazans beat and spit on the bodies of dead Jews brought into Gaza on that day, hearing about polls showing that the majority of Gazans still support Hamas, knowing that every other building had a tunnel exiting from it - and thus most Gazans had full knowledge that the strip was essentially being used as a vast underground terrorist network- all for the purpose of killing Jews- after all this I can no longer understand how ANY Israeli can expect peace with the Arabs in Gaza. It's a total fantasy that led to the brutal slaughter of so many left-wing peace activists on the kibbutzim in the South on that horrible day. Israel needs to do whatever it takes to survive. Never again means NEVER AGAIN, AGAIN!
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! We Jews will NOT be fooled thrice!
This is not merely condescending to the point of insulting, but demonstrates both a sense of intolerance for other views, elitism , a lack of love for the Medina and lack of appreciation for the great gift it represents and the tremendous good it has done for our people and the world. It reduces Israel to simply a state only worthy of support if it conforms to the author’s opinions and views. It is in its nature contemptuous of democracy.
As for the comments about a Neturei Karta state below and the like, they are just ridiculous straw man arguments. Nothing going on in Israel today deserves this type of denigration or disrespect of the state or its citizenry.
Legitimate scary questions and thoughts. personally I've had all of those myself.
I do think though that we are in a paradigm shift; that's what makes us so scared. We had one paradigm and now we're moving to a different paradigm. I think that the previous paradigm was Israel as a state. From what I can tell from the way other states in the world operate, citizens are expendable. States can lose people in crime, terror, and war. Or to industrial pollution. But as long as the state went on, all was well. The basic idea is that the state is all important and the people are expendable. What our government, our ‘right wing’ government is really about is about a shift in that idea. I think that the right wing parties and the right wing voters of which I consider myself don't think that anyone should be expendable. that there should be no lives lost for the greater purpose of any greater purpose. that there is no room for the cheapening of Jewish life or for that matter human life. That when the Fogel family was murdered, that should have been the end of Oslo. And i could cite a million other horrible atrocities when we acted like any other state. Israel could have walked away from October 7th and we would have been the darlings of the world. (That’s before Hezzbolla and Hamas and all of the rest would have ended us.) But we did not walk away because enough is enough. Enough with a paradigm that says, “people die everyday; that’s just the cost of doing business”. We are done being sacrifices for whatever social justice or deal that Europe and the United States wants to make with the Muslim world. ‘Dye-kvar-enough already’ is our response. We’re in the process of becoming a family, a family that cares about everybody which is way more than a state does. That’s the paradigm shift and paradigm shifts are frightening to everybody. Now I believe in the Messiah which is just my way of saying that I think there's going to be a happy ending. That doesn't mean that there's not going to be some frightening times. All we can do is the next right thing and stick with the plan.
As I read this heartfelt piece, which may have come more from the head than from the heart, I wondered what, from the perspective of an American Christian Zionist, the term "Jewish homeland" really means. I always thought it meant, well, a homeland for the Jews. Not the Arabs. (Not 'racist' just fact.) Kahane was correct, I think. You cannot at once have Israel as a liberal democracy, as you advocate, and Israel as a Jewish homeland - the Zionist Dream. It must one or the other, IMO. Examined through the clarity of religious lenses, your decision appears rather easy. The spirit, the omnipresent Shechinah that is Israel, the Jewish homeland as described in the Tanakh, seems already to have fled Safid, the "City on a Hill" (Matthew 5:14) and a metaphor for Christian and Jewish responsibilities. The secularized Jewish bodies may as well follow it into hiding. Please take no offense. A version of the same thing is happening in America as well - the loss of identity, the loss of belief, not only in God but in what God intended for America to become. I worry for Israel. I worry because Israel is a spiritual microcosm of America. Our fates are intertwined. Shalom.
We all have to learn to live with people who don’t agree with us. Israel’s democracy is not imperiled. That’s an overwrought sentiment throughout not just Israel but the west a response to losing elections and more than often than not other threats to power not just political but cultural. It’s reasonable to leave Israel in a time of war or any country in a time of war and obviously there’s a loyalty we all have to our country but we also have safety considerations and I wouldn’t judge someone with children or in difficult situations for moving. The urge to demonize people on the right and it is demonizing not as severe as what Hamas does to Jews in their educational system and rejectionist ideology…but its a very harmful othering necessitates that people remain in a window of belief dictated by whom? The moral elite? In a democracy we have all ranges of views and most are are not what one would call radical. and it’s helpful to understand why radical feelings and beliefs exist (are they organic responses or conformity) before dismissing them as beyond the pale. Before long a lot is beyond the pale. Israel needs to be united. Jews need to relax and embrace one another. Kol Yisrael Arevim Zeh Bazeh.
With Jews running to Israel because of growing worldwide antisemitism where are you going to go and be respected as Jews? Who is going to let you in? We have seen this story before it’s why we have Israel in the first place.
Such terrible thoughts. Where to begin? The writer has contempt for democracy, contempt for the views of others, and has created an elitist view of Israel based upon an imaginary straw man divorced from reality. There is a complete lack of appreciation for the tremendous good the State has done for our people and the world.
“Israel has made many mistakes and performed actions I am ashamed of.” I have heard this line repeated often. What are these “many mistakes” that Israel has made and what, aside from surrendering Gush Katif, do you have to be ashamed of? I would really like to understand this.
To me, this article reeks of defeatism and I pray that no one follows this man. Josh, I hope you'll publish something more inspiring.
So sad to read this article. To even ask the question tells me that the writer, even though native Israeli, does not understand what Israel is about. To suggest that a government with which the writer strongly disagrees can be a valid reason to leave makes clear that the writer has no belief that the democratic process can make a difference. Further, it shows that the Land is not valued more highly than the ideological 'values' of the writer, and these are the 'values' being conveyed to the writer's children! If for such ideas one would willingly cut oneself off from Israel, by leaving, then would it not be a good idea for the writer to either radically change or to pack up and leave now? Why wait? Israel will be stronger morally, ethically, ideologically and certainly militarily if we all rally as one, believing in our Torah heritage, and most importantly in our heavenly Commander of Armies. Those who are more comfortable with the value systems of Europe and America should go there, and enjoy the ways of life and comfort that they prefer. The Land is for those who truly value its 3,500 year old heritage.
So like, if the Neturi Karta take over the government and we start slaughtering animals on the Temple Mount and women are stoned to death for being suspected of adultery bc she doesn’t pass the test of drinking the bitter waters (whatever the f*** that means), you’ll still want to be Israeli?
I think there's a much better vision for Israel than the extremist drivel from religious fanatics and the extremist drivel from fanatics on the political left.
And if we can’t talk about it on THIS article/blog then where/when CAN we talk about it? When it’s too late?
I understand that but I’m making a point. We can’t pretend that the intentions of thousands of people don’t exist. I’m not really only talking about Neturi Karta, I am talking about people who legit speak about Amalek, who sound no better than Jihadists, and it’s way more than 10 (and they are having way more kids). The commenter writes “to even ask the question…” and goes off on a tirade as though the issue doesn’t even exist? Come on.
I'm not Orthodox but I study Judaism from Chabad writings (which are Orthodox). I've read articles from Chabad rabbis who interpret "Amalek" not in the literal way but in the spiritual way, to fight the "Amalek" within US. Yes, there is a general directive in Judaism about rising up to kill those who would kill us. Good, solid common sense to me. Amalek does symbolize the quintessential Jewish enemy. And while it might not be “good PR” for religious Jews to use Amalak as a call to action, we must act to eliminate the barbaric culture within our midst or we will be destroyed. It’s time to stop worrying about Israel’s “image” to the world. Our good-guy image didn’t get us anywhere. The Red/Green Alliance* did an excellent job buying politicians, academics, media and other influencers to lie and mislead for its own goals. And I wouldn’t worry about a majority of Israelis getting behind floggings, stonings and other barbaric punishments which were deemed appropriate in biblical times. Worry more about misguided peaceniks leading us to destruction because the Islamist dogma that informs Palestinians is totally incompatible with Israel’s liberal democracy and Judaism’s emphasis on caring for our fellows. Even when the last Hamas terrorist is dead, most Palestinian civilians will be controlled by the barbaric Mullahs and Imams in their midst. *For info about the Red/Green Alliance read Mike Cote’s article at: https://providencemag.com/2023/11/the-new-red-green-alliance-1/
Agree, Excellent comment!
I would say maybe 10 people in this country agree with Neturei Karta. There are more important things to worry about.
Do you actually believe that Israeli scientists are missing out on research grants because of their right wing government? If so you are wrong. It’s anti-semitism pure and simple. Jew haters have twisted Israeli self defense after the bloodiest massacre since the Holocaust into a “genocide.” And you are giving legitimacy to this slander. Israel had a left wing government that bent over backwards to give the Palestinians “dignity” by offering up everything they could possibly hope for. That was met by an intifada. But if only the nasty settlers would t attack aid trucks everything would be fine. Meanwhile enormous amounts of aid has been delivered to Gaza. You are fooling yourself if you thing changing the government will make a bit of difference.
I’m almost speechless. I’ve lived through both Lebanon wars, 2 or 3 intifadas (lost count), the Gulf War, 2014 when the three boys were kidnapped. I, too, have American citizenship. I have never once thought of leaving. Maybe when people became violent on Yom Kippur of this year—not letting Jews pray on the holiest day of the year- maybe that was one day when the thought arose, “Oh dear, what destruction this has caused,” but to leave? We are resilient.
"that dignity for Palestinians will lead to dignity for Israelis"
We saw how dignified the Palestinians are on Oct 7, abusing Jewish children they had kidnapped before the cameras, desecrating the bodies of young women they had raped, tortured and murdered, celebrating the families they burned alive while Palestinians watched, eating snacks.
Oct 7 showed once and forever these are not people capable of human dignity. The only way for a dignified life for Israelis is a return to pre-1967 with Gaza: completely sealed border with Israel, all external interaction through Egypt only, devastating force on any attempts to cross the Israeli border.
May Gaza live in utter destitution forever more while Israel's high-tech economy powers ahead.
https://hotair.com/david-strom/2023/10/31/palestinian-professor-on-baby-in-oven-with-or-without-baking-powder-n588814
Joshua
Perish the thought, and if you flee, do you think that the Sick Mobs in Sydney , Toronto NYC, will just say eh thats it,we fucked up Israel, job well done, dont have to kill any more Jews?
If anything they will be emboldened..
I didn’t write this essay.
My comment is not on the author, its the premise that Jews have to flee.
Stay Strong, Israel! We are not alone. The War for all Nations and The High living standards of our Nations is an ETERNAL WAR. I have said this before and I will say this again, ALL the Protestant Countries of The West are as embattled in this respect as Israel is. Nationhood is HARD! And this is true for all of us. These Wars are Forever Wars therefore. Get used it! I have. Sacrifice of the Blood, and of Morality when Survival can mean Fighting to the Death, are Universals and form the Fundamental Principles of Nationhood, true for both Israel and the Nations of The West. So, I have thus just shown, We are NOT ALONE! So Stand strong as a fine Nation, Israel! We have lasted 3000 years and counting! A fine country of a Fine People, The Jewish People. God Bless!
And remember that the 10 million plus members of Christians United for Israel are not your only allies: there are lots more.
https://cufi.org/
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/
If Jews leave Israel, the terrorist win! Screw that! I'd stay if I were you!
The "worst"is actions of a government and delusional people who say "Give the Arabs 1/2 of our G-d given Holy Land and everything will be quiet and peaceful". You are correct- the enemy is within. Isreal is meant to be a Holy land and not like the other nations. Yes and if Ben Gvir will become Defense Minister you won't have thousands of Jew-hating Arabs terrorizing us. Bait Shlishi will be for a holy lifestyle.
Thanks for publishing this Joshua. I like to read other perspectives especially from Israelis. Before October 7th, I would have resonated with much of what this rabbi says since I have always been a liberal American Jew. But October 7th "woke up" many of us to exactly what Israel is dealing with on its borders. Watching hundreds of ordinary Gazans beat and spit on the bodies of dead Jews brought into Gaza on that day, hearing about polls showing that the majority of Gazans still support Hamas, knowing that every other building had a tunnel exiting from it - and thus most Gazans had full knowledge that the strip was essentially being used as a vast underground terrorist network- all for the purpose of killing Jews- after all this I can no longer understand how ANY Israeli can expect peace with the Arabs in Gaza. It's a total fantasy that led to the brutal slaughter of so many left-wing peace activists on the kibbutzim in the South on that horrible day. Israel needs to do whatever it takes to survive. Never again means NEVER AGAIN, AGAIN!
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! We Jews will NOT be fooled thrice!
This is not merely condescending to the point of insulting, but demonstrates both a sense of intolerance for other views, elitism , a lack of love for the Medina and lack of appreciation for the great gift it represents and the tremendous good it has done for our people and the world. It reduces Israel to simply a state only worthy of support if it conforms to the author’s opinions and views. It is in its nature contemptuous of democracy.
As for the comments about a Neturei Karta state below and the like, they are just ridiculous straw man arguments. Nothing going on in Israel today deserves this type of denigration or disrespect of the state or its citizenry.
Legitimate scary questions and thoughts. personally I've had all of those myself.
I do think though that we are in a paradigm shift; that's what makes us so scared. We had one paradigm and now we're moving to a different paradigm. I think that the previous paradigm was Israel as a state. From what I can tell from the way other states in the world operate, citizens are expendable. States can lose people in crime, terror, and war. Or to industrial pollution. But as long as the state went on, all was well. The basic idea is that the state is all important and the people are expendable. What our government, our ‘right wing’ government is really about is about a shift in that idea. I think that the right wing parties and the right wing voters of which I consider myself don't think that anyone should be expendable. that there should be no lives lost for the greater purpose of any greater purpose. that there is no room for the cheapening of Jewish life or for that matter human life. That when the Fogel family was murdered, that should have been the end of Oslo. And i could cite a million other horrible atrocities when we acted like any other state. Israel could have walked away from October 7th and we would have been the darlings of the world. (That’s before Hezzbolla and Hamas and all of the rest would have ended us.) But we did not walk away because enough is enough. Enough with a paradigm that says, “people die everyday; that’s just the cost of doing business”. We are done being sacrifices for whatever social justice or deal that Europe and the United States wants to make with the Muslim world. ‘Dye-kvar-enough already’ is our response. We’re in the process of becoming a family, a family that cares about everybody which is way more than a state does. That’s the paradigm shift and paradigm shifts are frightening to everybody. Now I believe in the Messiah which is just my way of saying that I think there's going to be a happy ending. That doesn't mean that there's not going to be some frightening times. All we can do is the next right thing and stick with the plan.
As I read this heartfelt piece, which may have come more from the head than from the heart, I wondered what, from the perspective of an American Christian Zionist, the term "Jewish homeland" really means. I always thought it meant, well, a homeland for the Jews. Not the Arabs. (Not 'racist' just fact.) Kahane was correct, I think. You cannot at once have Israel as a liberal democracy, as you advocate, and Israel as a Jewish homeland - the Zionist Dream. It must one or the other, IMO. Examined through the clarity of religious lenses, your decision appears rather easy. The spirit, the omnipresent Shechinah that is Israel, the Jewish homeland as described in the Tanakh, seems already to have fled Safid, the "City on a Hill" (Matthew 5:14) and a metaphor for Christian and Jewish responsibilities. The secularized Jewish bodies may as well follow it into hiding. Please take no offense. A version of the same thing is happening in America as well - the loss of identity, the loss of belief, not only in God but in what God intended for America to become. I worry for Israel. I worry because Israel is a spiritual microcosm of America. Our fates are intertwined. Shalom.
We all have to learn to live with people who don’t agree with us. Israel’s democracy is not imperiled. That’s an overwrought sentiment throughout not just Israel but the west a response to losing elections and more than often than not other threats to power not just political but cultural. It’s reasonable to leave Israel in a time of war or any country in a time of war and obviously there’s a loyalty we all have to our country but we also have safety considerations and I wouldn’t judge someone with children or in difficult situations for moving. The urge to demonize people on the right and it is demonizing not as severe as what Hamas does to Jews in their educational system and rejectionist ideology…but its a very harmful othering necessitates that people remain in a window of belief dictated by whom? The moral elite? In a democracy we have all ranges of views and most are are not what one would call radical. and it’s helpful to understand why radical feelings and beliefs exist (are they organic responses or conformity) before dismissing them as beyond the pale. Before long a lot is beyond the pale. Israel needs to be united. Jews need to relax and embrace one another. Kol Yisrael Arevim Zeh Bazeh.
With Jews running to Israel because of growing worldwide antisemitism where are you going to go and be respected as Jews? Who is going to let you in? We have seen this story before it’s why we have Israel in the first place.
Such terrible thoughts. Where to begin? The writer has contempt for democracy, contempt for the views of others, and has created an elitist view of Israel based upon an imaginary straw man divorced from reality. There is a complete lack of appreciation for the tremendous good the State has done for our people and the world.