Reply to Esther's comments on my previous mailing, below! Sorry for any confusion.
I am so sorry to hear of your experience, Esther. That must have been very distressing and your pessimism here is understandable. But I wonder if we can abstract from that experience to any very general conclusions when the issues are so vital and the need so dramatic. And can we extend humanity to the inhumane? I must still recognise even the wickedest of people as of my own species. Otherwise how could I say they were wicked? There can be no moral condemnation of those who cannot be expected to act morally because they are not even members of the human species. But they are wicked, very wicked, and their actions utterly evil. It is because they remain human that they are open to moral censure, and that humanity also gives us some grounds, some hope - no matter how weak and unfounded - that they may change. Your pessimism at this stage, Esther, is so understandable but we must hope for the future because without hope things become, well, hopeless! With much love and prayers that things will change for the better. Paul
Moi nonplus, je ne veux pas, yo tampoco no tengo gans hablar contigo, payechelet ochin delako dosvedanya,, gay avec a sach vaytens fon mir on alamen, arrividerci, chalas ya mazhnun, maah salama, oofii rachok mi po. Sayonora
Despite their fealty to the Torah, the Christian and Islamic holy books both state that Jews are Satanic and cursed by Hashem. I know, it isn’t rational, and therein lies the eternal problem.
Oh dear, Marc! I fear I am unfamiliar with your sources in Christian 'holy books'. Which books are you thinking of? I cannot place that in the New Testament. Of course, there are subsequent Christian authors who say something like that occasionally. They are wrong to do so. But their books are not 'holy books', whatever that may be. And there are plenty of Christian sources that would differ and say otherwise. So please, Marc, don't have recourse to generalisations and stereotypes. It is understandable, given a history of misunderstanding. But let us start again! And ask the person we are dialoguing with what *they* hold, and maybe why, and see if some understanding can be reached. It is often easier than you may think, given real goodwill. And if not now, when?
Do you think Christians are not allies for Jews at this moment? I have seen lots of support from Christians. But yeah, a holy book should never have nasty stuff like that in it!
Also, I was saying to my husband the other day that I don’t remember one time in 44 years going to synagogue of any rabbi ever talking about Muslims. Their Quran is obsessed with Jews and Christians. And if you watch videos of sermons by emails they are utterly hateful. It’s just a religion of hate, especially to Jews. I don’t understand how it’s protected under any freedom of a religion or non-for-profit tax shelter.
If I wanted to create a cult that just wants to kill everybody I’m pretty sure it would be called a cult and I’d get thrown in jail. So I just don’t get it. Why are we still playing this game?
Anyway, the article is a nice gesture, but I’d be shocked if he did NOT receive a death threat from writing it. 😒
While I applaud the Rabbi's intent and goodwill in his letter, I find it unrealistic that this reconciliation would occur. Yes, he may get some Muslims who are open to dialogue with him, but it is the leadership who orchestrates the violence and Imans who spread the word that must be agreeable to it. There is one great distinction between Judaism and Islam, that is, Judaism has a profound belief in justice, ethics, and morality, while shame and honor are very important to Muslims, shame being a great sin and honor must be upheld. This is where an opportunity for dialogue can break down. In my opinion, Arabs have never gotten over their loss in the 1948 war, bringing shame, not honor to their people. In the same way, Palestinians have held onto refugee status, Arabs have held onto their shame and are still fighting to regain their honor.
I understand that a person can sometimes be under the impression that ALL persons of a certain group are bad in such or such a way. However, thankfully, individuals of a group, here persons of Islamic background, are NOT all the same. It is never true to say that ALL persons that belong to the same group are this or that. Therefore, it’s good to get to know differences between people of the same group. After all, you probably would also not like to be judged by a generalised view that others have of you based on which group they see you as part of. This does not mean that it can’t be so that A LOT of persons of the same group can’t be so or so. I’m just saying, it won’t ever be ALL that are so or so. These differences are what makes some of a group open to some things that others of their group wouldn’t be open to. And that is where there’s hope!
Bla, bla, bla… if you look at statistics, you can make pretty good assumptions about Muslims. You would be foolish not to. Just because one out of 10 is a good apple is not a good enough reason not to throw the baby out with the bath water! 💦
I like the idea of hope no matter how unrealistic it might appear. Also, I have trouble with seeing Jews as perfect and ethnical people ever and always. Jews also come in all shapes and colors. And they will be the first ones to admit their imperfection, which something, as I said before, I value immensely and am proud to belong.
The statement below from the article came as news to me. I have never been permitted inside a mosque. In fact, we were not permitted to carry books at the Temple Mount because we might use them for praying.
"Jews are allowed to enter a mosque as a house of worship".
Thank you, thank you so much for this brave and timely open letter. May I, as a British Catholic, make a comment? Of course, there is no such thing as a dialogue between Islam and Judaism as such. Both are too diverse. But there is the need for, wish for, search for dialogue between individual Jews and Muslims and their representatives each with goodwill seeking reconciliation. This is so needed and is why I for one applaud this piece wholeheartedly. And note something else: Out of the appalling, mind numbing, evil of October 7th there are signs, faint glimmers, of some good emerging. Please, please dear friends, let us all recognise it happening and thank G-d who can bring good out of the evil that we all do. Let us encourage and share in that search for the good which refuses to bow to sheer nihilistic evil but seeks (in this case) reconciliation and a positive future of constructive collaboration. And finally - forgive me, as an outsider - can I point to two of, for me, the greatest 20th century Jewish prophets who in spite of their comparative neglect in modern Israel can contribute something to this dialogue - Martin Buber and Viktor Frankl. Perhaps it is time to look again at what they might offer to this conversation? 'Blessed are the peacemakers' -yes, and for G-d all things are possible. Thank you, and do not despair.
Thank you for your words. But I don’t have a lot of hope for this. I was married to a Muslim for four years. They are deeply troubled people. Their religion makes it impossible for them to live in the current world and there is NO middle ground. So if you want to follow Islam, you will fail and suffer much inner torment. But then, if you want to leave Islam, you are at best excommunicated and shunned, at worst killed. I do not believe we should extend humanity to the inhumane.
My reply to this seems to be above! But it is still a reply to this. Sorry for any confusion, and thanks Esther for your comment. You have been very helpful in clarifying my own response to these issues.
This is very light on what is wrong with islam, and unfortunately shows a lack of understanding. Muslims are not free to choose between the earlier Meccan teachings and the later Medinan ones because of the doctrine of abrogation: later teachings on the same topic abrogate and replace earlier ones when they are in conflict. There is no mention of the serious ethical problems with islam: oppression of women and gays, child marriage, honour killings, rape of "infidels" permitted, death for blasphemy and apostasy, supremacism, jihad as a duty, and more.
I wrote my comments but I am surprised that some spiraled down into a dark place. I am sorry to see it happening. Thank you, Josh for sharing this letter - whether or not it can succeed or we are too far into the rabbit hole.
This might be a very constructive approach if we add some points of self-reflective criticism - something I am enormously proud of. Perhaps we should lead by example. This is not to say that we should avoid being honest and direct about the problems as it is done by this letter as well as being direct about misinterpretations or claims of such. I guess the point is much more challenging- how do we get the other side to engage? Why would it be in their interest? What would make them to want to do so? And, how widely is this letter distributed? Who is its audience in the broader sense?
Unfortunately, the Islamic religion has become a power tool, extremist and that leaved very little room for co-existance at this time. To educate all Muslims into cooperative discussion, etc., won't happen until the leadership in Iran, the Imams in many Mosques, all over the world are willing to stop telling Jews, Christians, etc,, that they have convert or die!
To say this is to ignore the entire history of Israel. Israel (the Israelis) have been trying to find ways of coexistence and ways to resolve conflicts throughout the decades of their existence. For 25 years that I could see with my own eyes, there was not a single act of violence on the part of Israel that was not forced to defend itself. Moreover, many acts of violence by the Arabs were left unanswered in order to maintain peace.
The Arabs, on the contrary, are intensifying attacks, shelling, and outbursts of hatred every time.
To say this is to ignore the fact that there is no hatred on the part of Israel. Israel provides food, water and fuel to Gaza, and does this not only during the war, but does it constantly.
Israel gives jobs to tens of thousands of Arabs, and in return receives missiles and massacres.
To say this means to ignore the fact that everything that is happening in Gaza now is a consequence of the actions of the Gazans themselves. They not only did not interfere with Hamas, they chose it, they helped Hamas prepare the massacre, they took part in the killings together with Hamas.
Do you still identify yourself with people who rejoice at every death of a Jew? Do you identify with people who welcomed the torture and murder of Jews? Do you identify yourself with those who are proud of the blood of a Jew on their hands?
Why do you identify with the Gazans? Do you identify as an Islamist ? Gaza is a theocracy run by an Islamist totalitarian barbaric group (Hamas). Do you identify with Hamas?
I profoundly disagree but even from your POV if you don’t identify with Islam or Hamas how do you even identify with Gaza? Also what do the Munich Olympics have to do with your POV?
Reply to Esther's comments on my previous mailing, below! Sorry for any confusion.
I am so sorry to hear of your experience, Esther. That must have been very distressing and your pessimism here is understandable. But I wonder if we can abstract from that experience to any very general conclusions when the issues are so vital and the need so dramatic. And can we extend humanity to the inhumane? I must still recognise even the wickedest of people as of my own species. Otherwise how could I say they were wicked? There can be no moral condemnation of those who cannot be expected to act morally because they are not even members of the human species. But they are wicked, very wicked, and their actions utterly evil. It is because they remain human that they are open to moral censure, and that humanity also gives us some grounds, some hope - no matter how weak and unfounded - that they may change. Your pessimism at this stage, Esther, is so understandable but we must hope for the future because without hope things become, well, hopeless! With much love and prayers that things will change for the better. Paul
Moi nonplus, je ne veux pas, yo tampoco no tengo gans hablar contigo, payechelet ochin delako dosvedanya,, gay avec a sach vaytens fon mir on alamen, arrividerci, chalas ya mazhnun, maah salama, oofii rachok mi po. Sayonora
Despite their fealty to the Torah, the Christian and Islamic holy books both state that Jews are Satanic and cursed by Hashem. I know, it isn’t rational, and therein lies the eternal problem.
Oh dear, Marc! I fear I am unfamiliar with your sources in Christian 'holy books'. Which books are you thinking of? I cannot place that in the New Testament. Of course, there are subsequent Christian authors who say something like that occasionally. They are wrong to do so. But their books are not 'holy books', whatever that may be. And there are plenty of Christian sources that would differ and say otherwise. So please, Marc, don't have recourse to generalisations and stereotypes. It is understandable, given a history of misunderstanding. But let us start again! And ask the person we are dialoguing with what *they* hold, and maybe why, and see if some understanding can be reached. It is often easier than you may think, given real goodwill. And if not now, when?
Do you think Christians are not allies for Jews at this moment? I have seen lots of support from Christians. But yeah, a holy book should never have nasty stuff like that in it!
Also, I was saying to my husband the other day that I don’t remember one time in 44 years going to synagogue of any rabbi ever talking about Muslims. Their Quran is obsessed with Jews and Christians. And if you watch videos of sermons by emails they are utterly hateful. It’s just a religion of hate, especially to Jews. I don’t understand how it’s protected under any freedom of a religion or non-for-profit tax shelter.
If I wanted to create a cult that just wants to kill everybody I’m pretty sure it would be called a cult and I’d get thrown in jail. So I just don’t get it. Why are we still playing this game?
Anyway, the article is a nice gesture, but I’d be shocked if he did NOT receive a death threat from writing it. 😒
While I applaud the Rabbi's intent and goodwill in his letter, I find it unrealistic that this reconciliation would occur. Yes, he may get some Muslims who are open to dialogue with him, but it is the leadership who orchestrates the violence and Imans who spread the word that must be agreeable to it. There is one great distinction between Judaism and Islam, that is, Judaism has a profound belief in justice, ethics, and morality, while shame and honor are very important to Muslims, shame being a great sin and honor must be upheld. This is where an opportunity for dialogue can break down. In my opinion, Arabs have never gotten over their loss in the 1948 war, bringing shame, not honor to their people. In the same way, Palestinians have held onto refugee status, Arabs have held onto their shame and are still fighting to regain their honor.
I understand that a person can sometimes be under the impression that ALL persons of a certain group are bad in such or such a way. However, thankfully, individuals of a group, here persons of Islamic background, are NOT all the same. It is never true to say that ALL persons that belong to the same group are this or that. Therefore, it’s good to get to know differences between people of the same group. After all, you probably would also not like to be judged by a generalised view that others have of you based on which group they see you as part of. This does not mean that it can’t be so that A LOT of persons of the same group can’t be so or so. I’m just saying, it won’t ever be ALL that are so or so. These differences are what makes some of a group open to some things that others of their group wouldn’t be open to. And that is where there’s hope!
Bla, bla, bla… if you look at statistics, you can make pretty good assumptions about Muslims. You would be foolish not to. Just because one out of 10 is a good apple is not a good enough reason not to throw the baby out with the bath water! 💦
I like the idea of hope no matter how unrealistic it might appear. Also, I have trouble with seeing Jews as perfect and ethnical people ever and always. Jews also come in all shapes and colors. And they will be the first ones to admit their imperfection, which something, as I said before, I value immensely and am proud to belong.
The statement below from the article came as news to me. I have never been permitted inside a mosque. In fact, we were not permitted to carry books at the Temple Mount because we might use them for praying.
"Jews are allowed to enter a mosque as a house of worship".
Thank you, thank you so much for this brave and timely open letter. May I, as a British Catholic, make a comment? Of course, there is no such thing as a dialogue between Islam and Judaism as such. Both are too diverse. But there is the need for, wish for, search for dialogue between individual Jews and Muslims and their representatives each with goodwill seeking reconciliation. This is so needed and is why I for one applaud this piece wholeheartedly. And note something else: Out of the appalling, mind numbing, evil of October 7th there are signs, faint glimmers, of some good emerging. Please, please dear friends, let us all recognise it happening and thank G-d who can bring good out of the evil that we all do. Let us encourage and share in that search for the good which refuses to bow to sheer nihilistic evil but seeks (in this case) reconciliation and a positive future of constructive collaboration. And finally - forgive me, as an outsider - can I point to two of, for me, the greatest 20th century Jewish prophets who in spite of their comparative neglect in modern Israel can contribute something to this dialogue - Martin Buber and Viktor Frankl. Perhaps it is time to look again at what they might offer to this conversation? 'Blessed are the peacemakers' -yes, and for G-d all things are possible. Thank you, and do not despair.
Thank you for your words. But I don’t have a lot of hope for this. I was married to a Muslim for four years. They are deeply troubled people. Their religion makes it impossible for them to live in the current world and there is NO middle ground. So if you want to follow Islam, you will fail and suffer much inner torment. But then, if you want to leave Islam, you are at best excommunicated and shunned, at worst killed. I do not believe we should extend humanity to the inhumane.
My reply to this seems to be above! But it is still a reply to this. Sorry for any confusion, and thanks Esther for your comment. You have been very helpful in clarifying my own response to these issues.
You’re welcome! It is a very challenging time for us all! I am looking back on my naivety also.
This is very light on what is wrong with islam, and unfortunately shows a lack of understanding. Muslims are not free to choose between the earlier Meccan teachings and the later Medinan ones because of the doctrine of abrogation: later teachings on the same topic abrogate and replace earlier ones when they are in conflict. There is no mention of the serious ethical problems with islam: oppression of women and gays, child marriage, honour killings, rape of "infidels" permitted, death for blasphemy and apostasy, supremacism, jihad as a duty, and more.
I wrote my comments but I am surprised that some spiraled down into a dark place. I am sorry to see it happening. Thank you, Josh for sharing this letter - whether or not it can succeed or we are too far into the rabbit hole.
MBS should read this.
This might be a very constructive approach if we add some points of self-reflective criticism - something I am enormously proud of. Perhaps we should lead by example. This is not to say that we should avoid being honest and direct about the problems as it is done by this letter as well as being direct about misinterpretations or claims of such. I guess the point is much more challenging- how do we get the other side to engage? Why would it be in their interest? What would make them to want to do so? And, how widely is this letter distributed? Who is its audience in the broader sense?
Unfortunately, the Islamic religion has become a power tool, extremist and that leaved very little room for co-existance at this time. To educate all Muslims into cooperative discussion, etc., won't happen until the leadership in Iran, the Imams in many Mosques, all over the world are willing to stop telling Jews, Christians, etc,, that they have convert or die!
This is a terribly misguided and inaccurate simile.
What does that even mean? What you wrote makes no sense.
To say this is to ignore the entire history of Israel. Israel (the Israelis) have been trying to find ways of coexistence and ways to resolve conflicts throughout the decades of their existence. For 25 years that I could see with my own eyes, there was not a single act of violence on the part of Israel that was not forced to defend itself. Moreover, many acts of violence by the Arabs were left unanswered in order to maintain peace.
The Arabs, on the contrary, are intensifying attacks, shelling, and outbursts of hatred every time.
To say this is to ignore the fact that there is no hatred on the part of Israel. Israel provides food, water and fuel to Gaza, and does this not only during the war, but does it constantly.
Israel gives jobs to tens of thousands of Arabs, and in return receives missiles and massacres.
To say this means to ignore the fact that everything that is happening in Gaza now is a consequence of the actions of the Gazans themselves. They not only did not interfere with Hamas, they chose it, they helped Hamas prepare the massacre, they took part in the killings together with Hamas.
Do you still identify yourself with people who rejoice at every death of a Jew? Do you identify with people who welcomed the torture and murder of Jews? Do you identify yourself with those who are proud of the blood of a Jew on their hands?
Why do you identify with the Gazans? Do you identify as an Islamist ? Gaza is a theocracy run by an Islamist totalitarian barbaric group (Hamas). Do you identify with Hamas?
Would you have felt bullied if you were living in one of the Kibbutz attacked on October 7th?
I profoundly disagree but even from your POV if you don’t identify with Islam or Hamas how do you even identify with Gaza? Also what do the Munich Olympics have to do with your POV?