Yikes! That is a truly horrible date but I'm not surprised either. I am a serious Zionist and I'm not Jewish, with a boring non-Jewish sounding name and I look like the person of Scottish ancestry I am. I've been writing in support of Israel and against antisemitism since shortly after October 7 and have been a strong supporter of Israel all my life. I find dating or even making local friends pretty well impossible. Since I'm not Jewish people say whatever horrible thing comes into their heads around me, and ask me what's wrong with me that I care so much about Israel when I'm not Jewish. Because I care about Western civilization and don't want to live under radical Islamic rule, which is coming for all of us? Look at Europe... Anyway, what's worse is that the Jewish men I've started talking with have invariably ended up being very wishy washy on Israel and accusing me of being too far to the Right. They see "nuance" - I really don't. Then I get lectured about how I don't know anything because I didn't grow up Jewish and I have never been to Israel. I actually think that not being Jewish has insulated me from the weird guilt that liberal Jews seem to carry around about "Palestinians." I even started to explore converting, as I am more religiously Jewish (grew up Christian, parents both Biblical scholars, my father, of blessed memory, taught Hebrew and took his college classes to Israel), but I was going to a Reform synagogue that spent more time bashing Trump than praying for our hostages, so I stopped going. The people were nice, but I can feel politically out of place in my keffiyeh wearing white people neighborhood if I want that. Anyway, I'm probably too old for you and I'm on the opposite coast, but single and a Zionist, and a huge fan of Future of Jewish! Oh, and my favorite thing to make is an Israeli salad too. I eat it every day.
April - Kol Hakavod! (continue with the conversion) - then find yourself a nice Jewish husband with an Israeli background - he wont be wishy washy about Israel, but you must be Jewish first! Again my unsolicited advice, if your late father taught Hebrew - he would be thrilled.
You are wonderful. Just a word about "the weird guilt that liberal Jews seem to carry around about "Palestinians." I heard someone on a podcast the other day say something like "there are Westerners who are so egotistical that they think the West is responsible for everything that has happened everywhere in the world!" I thought that was great. Anyway, I guess I should share that I'm married to a Northern European mutt who loves Jews (all his major relationships were with Jewish women) -- and I guess they love him. It cracks me up when he says, "mensch" or "farshtunkenah" or some other Yiddishism.
Dear Joshua, I am sorry that you had those experiences - but as someone who was raised in the USA and moved to Israel in 1971, I am familiar with antisemitism (which was then more subtle) long before 10/7.2023. I am going to sound like a Jewish grandmother (which I am) and the mother of two "middle aged" sons. I know you did not ask my advice - but as your "pretend" Jewish grandmother of the moment - I will give you some advice anyway... there are plenty of Jewish young women in the US who come from Sefardic, /Mizrachi and Ashkenazi, families, even daughters of Israelis, who know Hebrew and they are gorgeous. Why not date a young lady who shares your values - is actually Jewish, can open a siddur and sing Adon Olam - raised in a Zionist home and knows how to cook? These days many Jewish girls even look like Gal Gadot :-) You may not now, but down the road you may remember my words and thank me for my unsolicited advice. Shalom and happy dating. Safta shoshanna
Exactly what my advice is to you. No one loves a Jew like another Jew. These were words spoken by my late father-in -law and October 7 proved him to be correct. No matter how religious a Jew is we still share the same traditions that have kept us going for thousands of years.
So sorry to hear of your dreadful Jew hating dates. We in the UK are demonstrating to defund the BBC whose anti Isrsel (anti Jew!) Bias is so in your face
You got lucky. After my divorce I dated on and off for about 20 years before remarrying, and I came to prefer to know the worst about the person I was talking to as soon as possible, preferably within the first five minutes of meeting them, so I didn't need to waste time and emotional energy on them.
I certainly didn't try to convert them to my way of thinking, or teach them something. I have observed that past their 20s, most people don't want their beliefs challenged and don't want to learn anything.
It is terrific to find out that the person across from you is a total creep because then all the cards are in your hands. A five-minute date? I've had them. They give you the feeling of a lucky escape.
It is terrible to find out just how many people are creepy if you just scratch the surface but that's what dates are for. I used to say that by the time you're in your 30s most of your dating options are leftovers and you have to wait for the good people to get released from bad relationships, but I'm not sure if that's true.
In this date you were especially lucky because your rabid antisemite kept nothing back and her hatred was transparent. Most people don't know themselves at all and will swear up and down who they are and not only are they lying to you, they're lying to themselves. You just have to watch what they do, but sometimes it takes years to find out who they are. Polite antisemites are the most dangerous because it can take so long to find out that they secretly hate your guts, and often they will tell you many times they love you, so you let your guard down. When you have invested a lot into the relationship and then you find out who they are, it can be devastating.
This hate machine across the table from you, I imagine there are many, many women like her. Even many Jewish women I meet are passionate antisemites. If I had to find a mate all again, I think I would have just trundled myself to Israel when I was young. I imagine that would be a whole another set of problems but in 30 years I did not find the kind of mate I was looking for in the US.
Dear Joshua, You're going to be single for the rest of your life unless you relax some of your requirements and date ONLY JEWISH WOMEN. Wishing you well.
Agreed! Your “requirements” for prospective dates are, well, to be as polite as possible: ridiculous. You will never find one person who can meet all of your check-list items. You sound like you are buying property rather than looking for a partner.
I kind of agree. We all start out with checklists but you have to be flexible. I think of it like a formula: he has X; he's missing Y, but Z kind of makes up for it, etc, etc, etc. Here are the main criteria, in my opinion: can you laugh and have a blast together? is there some chemistry? (I say "some" because chemistry can grow); do you have shared values? do you respect each other?
As I grew up a Conservative Jew in the SF Bay Area, I loved the fact that it was easy to meet Jewish Men, and one really felt their identity was celebrated, moreso because we were a minority. As a young woman, I relocated to L.A. where I met my husband under Jewish auspices. I hated the phoniness of L.A., but admired the casualness of the ubiquitous Jewish community. Post 10/7/23, I doubt I could survive anywhere else, short of Israel, which is not a possibility at this time in my 60s senior life. Anti-Semitism has even reared its ugly head here in the community and on social media in the liberal circles that once embraced me. What is a salve to me is going into Western Bagel where the 20ish young worker has a large Magen David around his neck. Call me too forward, but whenever I pass obvious Israelis, I greet them with "Am Echad V' Am Yisrael Chai!" What is slow, continuous torture is the news from Israel and the hostages which I read about on the MANY Israeli & Jewish news outlets that I subscribe to. One article yesterday was about a hostage who has been kept in a cage and is losing cognition & touch with reality. I feel as if I am his helpless mother, and there is absolutely nothing I can do to save him, or the others who are at death's door......And then there are those former friends who challenged my stand as a Zionist & outrage about October 7th. Friends who I have lost, but I choose Judaism, I choose Israel, I choose LIFE. There are even a few cousins, who I am disgusted to say are Anti-Zionist protesters. Our mutual Grandfather who was killed in Auschwitz would be rolling over in his grave. There is a tremendous sense of both betrayal & loss. The larger issue here is that I have taken my Jewish Family and my Jewish Community's empathy, compassion & HUMANITY for granted; I thought that as Jews, it was part of our moral fiber. I have a few friends, righteous Gentiles, who have expressed their outrage with growing Anti-Semitism, and embraced me with their sentiments throughout this difficult time. That has meant SO MUCH, because I don't take their compassion for granted. I have 2 sons still in the dating World. One has expressed to me that while he is not religious or observant, there is something almost chemical, something intangible, that directs him to Jewish women....Something intangible that has to do with shared experience & perhaps shared generational trauma....There's an unspoken recognition, an unspoken understanding. I co-administrate two "Fighting Anti-Semitism California Groups," One for So. Cal & Ventura Counties (Not the general CA. one) & one for the S.F. Area. While we are a group for Zionists fighting Anti-Semitism, we are of various ages & stations in life. What I am suggesting is that post 10/7/23, we are not one cohesive Jewish Community. Tragically, we've become fractured. HOWEVER, since as you have pointed out, dating has now intersected with politics, I am suggesting that you find your Artsy Besheret through some young Pro-Israel Identification group. It's just one aspect of a person's personna, but it's a most essential aspect in this time & place.
It is so important to be with someone who loves your Jewishness. The antisemitism is worsening. The news on the hostages wakens me at night, Jeanette. A part of our heart is in a dark tunnel.
Your post made my stomach turn. I agree with others who said, why not pay the bill and leave. She did not deserve your considered treatment. People like her have closed minds. Date Jewish women if you want to ever get married. Give up trying to convince anyone of the “facts.” Advice from a 84 year old who has been around the block. Good luck! 🍀 ❤️
I know its hard but you need to find new circles. The odds of finding anyone, frankly even Jews, who share your zionism in these circles (Music industrly!) are low. I would have walked out the second I realized she was a Muslim from India. Unless the Muslim is overtly pro Israel (there are a few) they are hostile. Especially in Britain.
Darkness may hate the Light but I’ve always found something thrilling about dancing in the shadows with someone who knows how to glow. You strike me as dangerous in all the right ways.
When I dated I met a lot of Jewish men usually at liberal venues or as a Unitarian in those days. I am a Non-Jewish Zionist firmly cemented during a trip to Israel in the 60’s. Little Jewish Israeli Grandmothers would say “Well, you’re staying aren’t you Darling?” When I answered that I had to return to the U.S., one said, “Well, you’re Jewish aren’t you?” When I answered, “No.” She said, “What? You look more Jewish than I do.!” Maybe that accounted for the initial attraction from Jewish men. My dates were usually enjoyable, certainly not as dreary as yours, but by then I knew not to think of a serious relationship…not a member of the tribe, divorced raising two dear children…so temporary friendships. However, one of my relatives found and married a secular Jew (both are spiritual but not religious) to a spectacular success. Takes all kinds. Not one of my dates had been to Israel and I usually suggested that they go for a wonderful experience. Our Jewish relative had experienced plenty of antisemitism growing up in Europe even out loud on the trams, “the filthy Jews” was common. A child of Holocaust survivors, she had been to Israel but the Kibbutz was not for her. So she eagerly looked forwarded to coming here. Who could have dreamed of what is occurring today? In my senior community it’s subtle but I’m pretty adept by now in shooting it down. We have a variety of retirees from a reform female Rabbi to a post WWII Russian emigre recruited by our government as an interpreter for a (probably) undercover spy agency, to other diverse groups, Caucasian, Asian, Hispanic and a few blacks. So pretty much the melting pot now in danger of being replaced by Muslims. And I’m not for that.
BTW, our Russian emigre is also a Jew who barely escaped as a young child with her mother from the Nazi siege of Leningrad and miraculously made it to Moscow.
Yikes! That is a truly horrible date but I'm not surprised either. I am a serious Zionist and I'm not Jewish, with a boring non-Jewish sounding name and I look like the person of Scottish ancestry I am. I've been writing in support of Israel and against antisemitism since shortly after October 7 and have been a strong supporter of Israel all my life. I find dating or even making local friends pretty well impossible. Since I'm not Jewish people say whatever horrible thing comes into their heads around me, and ask me what's wrong with me that I care so much about Israel when I'm not Jewish. Because I care about Western civilization and don't want to live under radical Islamic rule, which is coming for all of us? Look at Europe... Anyway, what's worse is that the Jewish men I've started talking with have invariably ended up being very wishy washy on Israel and accusing me of being too far to the Right. They see "nuance" - I really don't. Then I get lectured about how I don't know anything because I didn't grow up Jewish and I have never been to Israel. I actually think that not being Jewish has insulated me from the weird guilt that liberal Jews seem to carry around about "Palestinians." I even started to explore converting, as I am more religiously Jewish (grew up Christian, parents both Biblical scholars, my father, of blessed memory, taught Hebrew and took his college classes to Israel), but I was going to a Reform synagogue that spent more time bashing Trump than praying for our hostages, so I stopped going. The people were nice, but I can feel politically out of place in my keffiyeh wearing white people neighborhood if I want that. Anyway, I'm probably too old for you and I'm on the opposite coast, but single and a Zionist, and a huge fan of Future of Jewish! Oh, and my favorite thing to make is an Israeli salad too. I eat it every day.
Love from another non Jewish Zionist.
April - Kol Hakavod! (continue with the conversion) - then find yourself a nice Jewish husband with an Israeli background - he wont be wishy washy about Israel, but you must be Jewish first! Again my unsolicited advice, if your late father taught Hebrew - he would be thrilled.
shalom!
You are wonderful. Just a word about "the weird guilt that liberal Jews seem to carry around about "Palestinians." I heard someone on a podcast the other day say something like "there are Westerners who are so egotistical that they think the West is responsible for everything that has happened everywhere in the world!" I thought that was great. Anyway, I guess I should share that I'm married to a Northern European mutt who loves Jews (all his major relationships were with Jewish women) -- and I guess they love him. It cracks me up when he says, "mensch" or "farshtunkenah" or some other Yiddishism.
Sweet!
Dear Joshua, I am sorry that you had those experiences - but as someone who was raised in the USA and moved to Israel in 1971, I am familiar with antisemitism (which was then more subtle) long before 10/7.2023. I am going to sound like a Jewish grandmother (which I am) and the mother of two "middle aged" sons. I know you did not ask my advice - but as your "pretend" Jewish grandmother of the moment - I will give you some advice anyway... there are plenty of Jewish young women in the US who come from Sefardic, /Mizrachi and Ashkenazi, families, even daughters of Israelis, who know Hebrew and they are gorgeous. Why not date a young lady who shares your values - is actually Jewish, can open a siddur and sing Adon Olam - raised in a Zionist home and knows how to cook? These days many Jewish girls even look like Gal Gadot :-) You may not now, but down the road you may remember my words and thank me for my unsolicited advice. Shalom and happy dating. Safta shoshanna
Exactly what my advice is to you. No one loves a Jew like another Jew. These were words spoken by my late father-in -law and October 7 proved him to be correct. No matter how religious a Jew is we still share the same traditions that have kept us going for thousands of years.
So sorry to hear of your dreadful Jew hating dates. We in the UK are demonstrating to defund the BBC whose anti Isrsel (anti Jew!) Bias is so in your face
I wonder why, if it's clear from your profile that you are Jewish, these Jew-haters bother to go on a date with you. Kind of weird.
You got lucky. After my divorce I dated on and off for about 20 years before remarrying, and I came to prefer to know the worst about the person I was talking to as soon as possible, preferably within the first five minutes of meeting them, so I didn't need to waste time and emotional energy on them.
I certainly didn't try to convert them to my way of thinking, or teach them something. I have observed that past their 20s, most people don't want their beliefs challenged and don't want to learn anything.
It is terrific to find out that the person across from you is a total creep because then all the cards are in your hands. A five-minute date? I've had them. They give you the feeling of a lucky escape.
It is terrible to find out just how many people are creepy if you just scratch the surface but that's what dates are for. I used to say that by the time you're in your 30s most of your dating options are leftovers and you have to wait for the good people to get released from bad relationships, but I'm not sure if that's true.
In this date you were especially lucky because your rabid antisemite kept nothing back and her hatred was transparent. Most people don't know themselves at all and will swear up and down who they are and not only are they lying to you, they're lying to themselves. You just have to watch what they do, but sometimes it takes years to find out who they are. Polite antisemites are the most dangerous because it can take so long to find out that they secretly hate your guts, and often they will tell you many times they love you, so you let your guard down. When you have invested a lot into the relationship and then you find out who they are, it can be devastating.
This hate machine across the table from you, I imagine there are many, many women like her. Even many Jewish women I meet are passionate antisemites. If I had to find a mate all again, I think I would have just trundled myself to Israel when I was young. I imagine that would be a whole another set of problems but in 30 years I did not find the kind of mate I was looking for in the US.
Why didn’t you just leave?
Dear Joshua, You're going to be single for the rest of your life unless you relax some of your requirements and date ONLY JEWISH WOMEN. Wishing you well.
Agreed! Your “requirements” for prospective dates are, well, to be as polite as possible: ridiculous. You will never find one person who can meet all of your check-list items. You sound like you are buying property rather than looking for a partner.
I kind of agree. We all start out with checklists but you have to be flexible. I think of it like a formula: he has X; he's missing Y, but Z kind of makes up for it, etc, etc, etc. Here are the main criteria, in my opinion: can you laugh and have a blast together? is there some chemistry? (I say "some" because chemistry can grow); do you have shared values? do you respect each other?
Dear Joshua, (Also name of one of my 2 sons)
As I grew up a Conservative Jew in the SF Bay Area, I loved the fact that it was easy to meet Jewish Men, and one really felt their identity was celebrated, moreso because we were a minority. As a young woman, I relocated to L.A. where I met my husband under Jewish auspices. I hated the phoniness of L.A., but admired the casualness of the ubiquitous Jewish community. Post 10/7/23, I doubt I could survive anywhere else, short of Israel, which is not a possibility at this time in my 60s senior life. Anti-Semitism has even reared its ugly head here in the community and on social media in the liberal circles that once embraced me. What is a salve to me is going into Western Bagel where the 20ish young worker has a large Magen David around his neck. Call me too forward, but whenever I pass obvious Israelis, I greet them with "Am Echad V' Am Yisrael Chai!" What is slow, continuous torture is the news from Israel and the hostages which I read about on the MANY Israeli & Jewish news outlets that I subscribe to. One article yesterday was about a hostage who has been kept in a cage and is losing cognition & touch with reality. I feel as if I am his helpless mother, and there is absolutely nothing I can do to save him, or the others who are at death's door......And then there are those former friends who challenged my stand as a Zionist & outrage about October 7th. Friends who I have lost, but I choose Judaism, I choose Israel, I choose LIFE. There are even a few cousins, who I am disgusted to say are Anti-Zionist protesters. Our mutual Grandfather who was killed in Auschwitz would be rolling over in his grave. There is a tremendous sense of both betrayal & loss. The larger issue here is that I have taken my Jewish Family and my Jewish Community's empathy, compassion & HUMANITY for granted; I thought that as Jews, it was part of our moral fiber. I have a few friends, righteous Gentiles, who have expressed their outrage with growing Anti-Semitism, and embraced me with their sentiments throughout this difficult time. That has meant SO MUCH, because I don't take their compassion for granted. I have 2 sons still in the dating World. One has expressed to me that while he is not religious or observant, there is something almost chemical, something intangible, that directs him to Jewish women....Something intangible that has to do with shared experience & perhaps shared generational trauma....There's an unspoken recognition, an unspoken understanding. I co-administrate two "Fighting Anti-Semitism California Groups," One for So. Cal & Ventura Counties (Not the general CA. one) & one for the S.F. Area. While we are a group for Zionists fighting Anti-Semitism, we are of various ages & stations in life. What I am suggesting is that post 10/7/23, we are not one cohesive Jewish Community. Tragically, we've become fractured. HOWEVER, since as you have pointed out, dating has now intersected with politics, I am suggesting that you find your Artsy Besheret through some young Pro-Israel Identification group. It's just one aspect of a person's personna, but it's a most essential aspect in this time & place.
It is so important to be with someone who loves your Jewishness. The antisemitism is worsening. The news on the hostages wakens me at night, Jeanette. A part of our heart is in a dark tunnel.
Your post made my stomach turn. I agree with others who said, why not pay the bill and leave. She did not deserve your considered treatment. People like her have closed minds. Date Jewish women if you want to ever get married. Give up trying to convince anyone of the “facts.” Advice from a 84 year old who has been around the block. Good luck! 🍀 ❤️
I know its hard but you need to find new circles. The odds of finding anyone, frankly even Jews, who share your zionism in these circles (Music industrly!) are low. I would have walked out the second I realized she was a Muslim from India. Unless the Muslim is overtly pro Israel (there are a few) they are hostile. Especially in Britain.
“Darkness hates the Light…”
Darkness may hate the Light but I’ve always found something thrilling about dancing in the shadows with someone who knows how to glow. You strike me as dangerous in all the right ways.
Make Aliyah and you will find your soul mate my friend!
No guarantee. I married an Israeli and it was a nightmare.
When I dated I met a lot of Jewish men usually at liberal venues or as a Unitarian in those days. I am a Non-Jewish Zionist firmly cemented during a trip to Israel in the 60’s. Little Jewish Israeli Grandmothers would say “Well, you’re staying aren’t you Darling?” When I answered that I had to return to the U.S., one said, “Well, you’re Jewish aren’t you?” When I answered, “No.” She said, “What? You look more Jewish than I do.!” Maybe that accounted for the initial attraction from Jewish men. My dates were usually enjoyable, certainly not as dreary as yours, but by then I knew not to think of a serious relationship…not a member of the tribe, divorced raising two dear children…so temporary friendships. However, one of my relatives found and married a secular Jew (both are spiritual but not religious) to a spectacular success. Takes all kinds. Not one of my dates had been to Israel and I usually suggested that they go for a wonderful experience. Our Jewish relative had experienced plenty of antisemitism growing up in Europe even out loud on the trams, “the filthy Jews” was common. A child of Holocaust survivors, she had been to Israel but the Kibbutz was not for her. So she eagerly looked forwarded to coming here. Who could have dreamed of what is occurring today? In my senior community it’s subtle but I’m pretty adept by now in shooting it down. We have a variety of retirees from a reform female Rabbi to a post WWII Russian emigre recruited by our government as an interpreter for a (probably) undercover spy agency, to other diverse groups, Caucasian, Asian, Hispanic and a few blacks. So pretty much the melting pot now in danger of being replaced by Muslims. And I’m not for that.
BTW, our Russian emigre is also a Jew who barely escaped as a young child with her mother from the Nazi siege of Leningrad and miraculously made it to Moscow.
If you're ashkenazi, attend some mizrahi events. And the other way around. You will meet your soul mate
I wish I could say I was surprised, but I'm just not.
Here's one of mine: Stupid Things People Say To You When You're Not Jewish and You Support Israel https://changeanythingwithapril.com/p/stupid-things-people-say-when-youre
So sad that you had to go through this.
You are courageous that you continued with the date of the half-Indian girl while she was clearly a Jew-hater.
In your place I would have paid the bill and would have left after thanking her for the ‚nice evening’.
I wish you good luck with your future dates.
Let’s hope there will be a strong push back from society on Jew-hatred and antisemitism.
The core should be that Jew-hatred and antisemitsm is low class, something only uneducated and weird people do.
There is still a long way to go.