Facts alone rarely penetrate this structure because facts are processed through the identity they threaten. The more politically useful the belief, the more psychologically defended it becomes.
Great essay. I would also add that for anybody wishing to end the conversation, in a quick and civilized way, I recommend asking "what should Israel have done?" That generally clears the room.
Sometimes I ask them if they have read the Hamas Palestine Charter, or what kind of government should Palestine have? Once I asked if he agreed with the Hamas Charters, no answer, he disappeared. They legitimize Hamas, but don't have the courage to admit it.
Solid advice that I am incapable of following. My reaction to folk who spout the BS words in regard to Israel: genocide, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, colonization, is that I am dealing with a moron incapable of critical thinking. Their brain has been infected with the demon spawned Jew hatred worm. My response if I have the patience to listen to the BS is to respond, "What a bunch of BS. Lordy, you can't believe the BS you just spouted." If I engage a bit, I remind them hamas slaughtered 1200 in one day on October 7th, and pledged to make everyday October 7th. The only reason they have failed in doing so is Israel stopped the slaughter. It isn't for lack of trying. I then ask how come in 2.5 years of war Israel hasn't matched the one day death count hamas achieved on October 7th. Until they can answer that question, which they never can with intelligence, I am done with them.
I feel no need to convince them of anything. Their opinion means nothing to me. The one thing I do follow is I remain calm. I have dealt with many morons, some violent, in my 28 years of law enforcement. The important thing is to remain calm and have no fear, Hashem is with you.
Personally, my interactions have proved fruitless. Either they always ensure they outnumber you, or when you keep continuing them with their own twisted "logic", they refuse to continue talking and telling you "Well, this is just how I feel". When it's two three or four on one, it's impossible to counter every ridiculous position they take. When they confess that it's just how they feel, there's no arguing with them about their feelings.
Since October 7th, I've been unable to make any headway with anyone. They are effectively brainwashed.
It's worth just looking very serious and saying "How interesting, what makes you believe that?" if there is a chance that the previous advice on how to talk to them works, it makes them feel belittled ;)
Ruth, Not sure if your comment was meant for me or Marsha. If meant for me, not my style, except for looking serious. I would not find it interesting that a person accuses Israel of genocide, ethnic cleansing, colonizing, or apartheid, nor would I be interested in why they believe it. People who believe such nonsense have been brainwashed or are Jew haters willing to believe anything ill of Jews. My intent with my response is not so much to belittle them but to be done with them. Otherwise I risk getting into a braying contest with a jackass, a contest I would not enjoy and would lose.
But if my question to them (why is it that Israel hasn't killed 1200 Gazans in a single day, why not even half that amount?) has given them pause, made them reflect, I might engage further provided I otherwise didn't find them annoying.
Nothing wrong with your approach Ruth, just not my style.
I agree with you, Steve. And I admire and respect Nachum’s advice. Where I would add a caveat is illustrated by one of the most memorable lines in movie history from “A Few Good Men.” Jack Nicholson tells Tom Cruise “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!” Those who are not on the payroll of Qatar, have been brainwashed by those who are. Beyond this salient point, however is that “Free Palestine” has become part of who they are. It gives them a purpose in life to the exclusion of all else. And it gives them an identity, and a “family.” A family of equal misfits but a family to be sure. This is why they travel in groups, in mobs. This is where they draw their energy and courage such as it is. A perfect example of this is Greta (“How Dare You!”) Thunberg. On her last fantasy voyage to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza in her little boat with equally delusional comrades, she and they were arrested. Israeli officials offered to show the video the Hamas genociders, rapists, and baby killers took themselves. She naturally refused. There is a saying: “Don’t confuse me with facts. My mind is made up.” This gets back to “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!”
Brilliant, as I have come to expect from Nachum. I really like this guy!
I can't have these discussions because I can't think fast on my feet. I prefer to have debates over email and am in fact conducting one such debate with someone who is not pro-terrorism at all but harshly critical of Israel.
Yes! I can’t think ”on the hoof”, unfortunately even when online(got a few cognitive difficulties from a stroke and it takes me ages even to write an ‘ordinary’ message/email: takes a morning to write anything involving my emotions, and leaves me completely drained, emotionally and physically, so I tend not to engage unless .i feel that “This one, I must” feeling inside(can’t define it, I just know it when I feel it)
I am of the mind to NOT CARE WHAT THEY THINK. I refuse to defend. I refuse to apologize, I refuse to care as that would be a lie. I don’t care. Never have, never will. I switch the conversation to my favorite coffee. Yup that’s much I care.
I agree Sabrina. When fools think they can convince others that they are all about caring for children, without being able to show evidence that they protested the child abuse that began this crisis, I stop listening. My truth compass points me in another direction.
I think we need simple and concise questions that force certain acknowledgements of their own ignorance of hypocrisy... "Wasn't Jesus a Jew who lived and died there centuries before Islam?" "Aren't Arabs originally from Arabia?" "Doesn't Israel have a 20% Muslim population with full equal rights?" "How many Muslim countries are there?" "Aren't the 50+ Muslim countries religiously homogenous?" "Which Muslim countries allow for LGBT people to live openly and legally?" "Have there been any genocides that have also lead to population growth?" "When Palestine was named Palestine weren't all of the inhabitants Jewish over 400 years before Islam."
There are none so blind as those who will not see. There are none so deaf as those who will not hear. Using your proposed assortment of very sophisticated psychological strategies derived from psychotherapy seems, on the face of it, to be a worthwhile endeavor. However, speaking as a psychotherapist with 45 years experience, there are clients of therapy that cannot be reached, no matter how skilled and talented the therapist. There are those who do not want to change. They want to remain in the shell of their defenses because they feel safe inside it and venturing outside is simply out of the question for them. When dealing with people committed to the demonization of Israel with the sloganeering pablum of words like “apartheid“, “settler colonial state“, and “genocide“, we are dealing with people who do not want to change. You can stand on your head and prove them wrong in the most skilled possible ways. It will still be an exercise in futility.
Wise words - you can’t beat experience, especially 45 years of it! My first instinct, and one I surrendered to just a couple of days ago, is to respond with outrage. At the end of the day though, I think it would be better just not to bother with any kind of response at all, and leave the haters to their delusions instead.
Mass Formation Psychosis lives. Maybe not in the current DSM 5 but it’s alive and well in the minds of Jew Haters everywhere. The article is a field guide for confronting it in the wild.
I agree with you. It began as mass hysteria, whipped up by screaming street protesters and campus campers. Then the propaganda machine shifted up the gears and became mass formation psychosis. I fear for the next stage, since governments, everywhere, are unable to prevent it.
The Jewish Exodus and our scattering to Asia and Europe as the Diaspora began with the Roman Emperor Hadrian’s destruction of Jerusalem, and the Expulsion of The Jews from Judea, and its compulsory renaming as Palestinia. This is where the Holocausts and Pogroms which have happened to us started. We would not have been in Europe and the Russian lands without the horror of The Roman Expulsions. This is Real History. Start here.
Good, solid advice, if you can control your face & words. I’m looking forward to practicing what you preach. Thanks for your dedication & wisdom in helping your followers cope with antisemitism & anti Zionism, which go hand in hand. I believe you are serving G-d by spreading your messages. 🦁
A wonderful “wish fulfillment “ essay. I, personally, loved it, less because I’m a clinician and more because of your clever use of snark. First smile of the day
Admiting "Palestinian suffering is real," To a Palestinianist is admitting that there was a "Nakba" and from then on an "ongoing genocide." And all this is due to Jews, to Zionism, to Israelis, to the IDF, whatever the Palestinianist choses to use. There is as my neighbor told me after Oct. 7th...."everyone suffers" So the victims of Oct 7 th ,unprovoked barbarism is the same as the Israeli bombing of hamas positions in which hamas employs human shields. The only victims are the Palestinians and their sufferering ends with the end of Israel. As they see it.
Yes; any kind of response that seems to them to be in the slightest way acknowledging their opinion becomes … sorry, can’t find word I want: that you can be persuaded? That they are persuading you? Something like that, though that doesn’t say what Iwant to. I love the word “Palestinianist”. It’s a whole concept in one word.
For someone willing to engage an appropriate first responsemight be: “so you don’t support indigenous rights?” And take it from there.
For the moron who challenges with a “why do you kill babies” I still think the best response is: “did you kill your grandmother to steal her money or because she knew you’re a loser?”
This is really good "user" manual for anybody that encounters "Free Palestine" specimen that is even able to shut up and retains ability to listen . Interlocutor of such specimen would need own therapist in tow to intervene before thoughts of hopelessness and futility of such discussions set in.
Great essay. I would also add that for anybody wishing to end the conversation, in a quick and civilized way, I recommend asking "what should Israel have done?" That generally clears the room.
I sometimes ask "What would You have done?" - and the following silence or fumbling excuse is golden.
Sometimes I ask them if they have read the Hamas Palestine Charter, or what kind of government should Palestine have? Once I asked if he agreed with the Hamas Charters, no answer, he disappeared. They legitimize Hamas, but don't have the courage to admit it.
Solid advice that I am incapable of following. My reaction to folk who spout the BS words in regard to Israel: genocide, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, colonization, is that I am dealing with a moron incapable of critical thinking. Their brain has been infected with the demon spawned Jew hatred worm. My response if I have the patience to listen to the BS is to respond, "What a bunch of BS. Lordy, you can't believe the BS you just spouted." If I engage a bit, I remind them hamas slaughtered 1200 in one day on October 7th, and pledged to make everyday October 7th. The only reason they have failed in doing so is Israel stopped the slaughter. It isn't for lack of trying. I then ask how come in 2.5 years of war Israel hasn't matched the one day death count hamas achieved on October 7th. Until they can answer that question, which they never can with intelligence, I am done with them.
I feel no need to convince them of anything. Their opinion means nothing to me. The one thing I do follow is I remain calm. I have dealt with many morons, some violent, in my 28 years of law enforcement. The important thing is to remain calm and have no fear, Hashem is with you.
Great response, Steve.
Personally, my interactions have proved fruitless. Either they always ensure they outnumber you, or when you keep continuing them with their own twisted "logic", they refuse to continue talking and telling you "Well, this is just how I feel". When it's two three or four on one, it's impossible to counter every ridiculous position they take. When they confess that it's just how they feel, there's no arguing with them about their feelings.
Since October 7th, I've been unable to make any headway with anyone. They are effectively brainwashed.
"Clear Thinking" was removed as a compulsory subject from our state high school syllabuses decades ago, replaced by general gullibility.
It's worth just looking very serious and saying "How interesting, what makes you believe that?" if there is a chance that the previous advice on how to talk to them works, it makes them feel belittled ;)
Ruth, Not sure if your comment was meant for me or Marsha. If meant for me, not my style, except for looking serious. I would not find it interesting that a person accuses Israel of genocide, ethnic cleansing, colonizing, or apartheid, nor would I be interested in why they believe it. People who believe such nonsense have been brainwashed or are Jew haters willing to believe anything ill of Jews. My intent with my response is not so much to belittle them but to be done with them. Otherwise I risk getting into a braying contest with a jackass, a contest I would not enjoy and would lose.
But if my question to them (why is it that Israel hasn't killed 1200 Gazans in a single day, why not even half that amount?) has given them pause, made them reflect, I might engage further provided I otherwise didn't find them annoying.
Nothing wrong with your approach Ruth, just not my style.
@Steve, "interesting" is English sarcasm for "not very bright" or when you feel like patronising them right back ;)
Thanks for the clarification.
That's a great question.
I agree with you, Steve. And I admire and respect Nachum’s advice. Where I would add a caveat is illustrated by one of the most memorable lines in movie history from “A Few Good Men.” Jack Nicholson tells Tom Cruise “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!” Those who are not on the payroll of Qatar, have been brainwashed by those who are. Beyond this salient point, however is that “Free Palestine” has become part of who they are. It gives them a purpose in life to the exclusion of all else. And it gives them an identity, and a “family.” A family of equal misfits but a family to be sure. This is why they travel in groups, in mobs. This is where they draw their energy and courage such as it is. A perfect example of this is Greta (“How Dare You!”) Thunberg. On her last fantasy voyage to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza in her little boat with equally delusional comrades, she and they were arrested. Israeli officials offered to show the video the Hamas genociders, rapists, and baby killers took themselves. She naturally refused. There is a saying: “Don’t confuse me with facts. My mind is made up.” This gets back to “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!”
Agree 100%
Most of them don't deserve anything but a report and a block. I agree.
Brilliant, as I have come to expect from Nachum. I really like this guy!
I can't have these discussions because I can't think fast on my feet. I prefer to have debates over email and am in fact conducting one such debate with someone who is not pro-terrorism at all but harshly critical of Israel.
Yes! I can’t think ”on the hoof”, unfortunately even when online(got a few cognitive difficulties from a stroke and it takes me ages even to write an ‘ordinary’ message/email: takes a morning to write anything involving my emotions, and leaves me completely drained, emotionally and physically, so I tend not to engage unless .i feel that “This one, I must” feeling inside(can’t define it, I just know it when I feel it)
Thanks for that… helpful and reassuring for me
I'm very sorry for your troubles, Alex! I can't even react quickly without cognitive difficulties, so you're good :)
I am of the mind to NOT CARE WHAT THEY THINK. I refuse to defend. I refuse to apologize, I refuse to care as that would be a lie. I don’t care. Never have, never will. I switch the conversation to my favorite coffee. Yup that’s much I care.
I agree Sabrina. When fools think they can convince others that they are all about caring for children, without being able to show evidence that they protested the child abuse that began this crisis, I stop listening. My truth compass points me in another direction.
I think we need simple and concise questions that force certain acknowledgements of their own ignorance of hypocrisy... "Wasn't Jesus a Jew who lived and died there centuries before Islam?" "Aren't Arabs originally from Arabia?" "Doesn't Israel have a 20% Muslim population with full equal rights?" "How many Muslim countries are there?" "Aren't the 50+ Muslim countries religiously homogenous?" "Which Muslim countries allow for LGBT people to live openly and legally?" "Have there been any genocides that have also lead to population growth?" "When Palestine was named Palestine weren't all of the inhabitants Jewish over 400 years before Islam."
There are none so blind as those who will not see. There are none so deaf as those who will not hear. Using your proposed assortment of very sophisticated psychological strategies derived from psychotherapy seems, on the face of it, to be a worthwhile endeavor. However, speaking as a psychotherapist with 45 years experience, there are clients of therapy that cannot be reached, no matter how skilled and talented the therapist. There are those who do not want to change. They want to remain in the shell of their defenses because they feel safe inside it and venturing outside is simply out of the question for them. When dealing with people committed to the demonization of Israel with the sloganeering pablum of words like “apartheid“, “settler colonial state“, and “genocide“, we are dealing with people who do not want to change. You can stand on your head and prove them wrong in the most skilled possible ways. It will still be an exercise in futility.
Wise words - you can’t beat experience, especially 45 years of it! My first instinct, and one I surrendered to just a couple of days ago, is to respond with outrage. At the end of the day though, I think it would be better just not to bother with any kind of response at all, and leave the haters to their delusions instead.
This is really good advice!
Mass Formation Psychosis lives. Maybe not in the current DSM 5 but it’s alive and well in the minds of Jew Haters everywhere. The article is a field guide for confronting it in the wild.
I agree with you. It began as mass hysteria, whipped up by screaming street protesters and campus campers. Then the propaganda machine shifted up the gears and became mass formation psychosis. I fear for the next stage, since governments, everywhere, are unable to prevent it.
The Jewish Exodus and our scattering to Asia and Europe as the Diaspora began with the Roman Emperor Hadrian’s destruction of Jerusalem, and the Expulsion of The Jews from Judea, and its compulsory renaming as Palestinia. This is where the Holocausts and Pogroms which have happened to us started. We would not have been in Europe and the Russian lands without the horror of The Roman Expulsions. This is Real History. Start here.
Good, solid advice, if you can control your face & words. I’m looking forward to practicing what you preach. Thanks for your dedication & wisdom in helping your followers cope with antisemitism & anti Zionism, which go hand in hand. I believe you are serving G-d by spreading your messages. 🦁
A wonderful “wish fulfillment “ essay. I, personally, loved it, less because I’m a clinician and more because of your clever use of snark. First smile of the day
Admiting "Palestinian suffering is real," To a Palestinianist is admitting that there was a "Nakba" and from then on an "ongoing genocide." And all this is due to Jews, to Zionism, to Israelis, to the IDF, whatever the Palestinianist choses to use. There is as my neighbor told me after Oct. 7th...."everyone suffers" So the victims of Oct 7 th ,unprovoked barbarism is the same as the Israeli bombing of hamas positions in which hamas employs human shields. The only victims are the Palestinians and their sufferering ends with the end of Israel. As they see it.
Yes; any kind of response that seems to them to be in the slightest way acknowledging their opinion becomes … sorry, can’t find word I want: that you can be persuaded? That they are persuading you? Something like that, though that doesn’t say what Iwant to. I love the word “Palestinianist”. It’s a whole concept in one word.
For someone willing to engage an appropriate first responsemight be: “so you don’t support indigenous rights?” And take it from there.
For the moron who challenges with a “why do you kill babies” I still think the best response is: “did you kill your grandmother to steal her money or because she knew you’re a loser?”
Great article from an academic perspective. In reality I’ll save my breath.
This is really good "user" manual for anybody that encounters "Free Palestine" specimen that is even able to shut up and retains ability to listen . Interlocutor of such specimen would need own therapist in tow to intervene before thoughts of hopelessness and futility of such discussions set in.
This is fabulous and I will return to it to read again.
My biggest problem will be controlling my face however.