The military, for better or for worse, is the ultimate reflection of its surrounding society. Having served myself during the Vietnam War (my draft number was 14 and I enlisted in the U.S Navy before the Army could get me), I can say that I have met and worked with good individuals and not so good. I was exposed to people from many diverse walks of society and am better off for it. Through it all, there was one dynamic that was more important than all of the others; regardless of where we started, we were all in it together. That was our strength.
It was not until I returned from active duty that I realized that we had become two separate societies within the same country. The people who received draft deferments while in college (to study, of course), were some of the same people who learned how to despise those of us who served. I have gotten over the anger, and I no longer bear animosity against those who evaded service, but in my darker moments, it still "irritates" me when I recall so-called educated people calling us "baby killers", "chumps", " vet" (as a profanity), and other insults as you can imagine. No coming home parades for us. When I eventually attended college under the G.I. Bill, I kept my identity as a "vet" close to the vest. This division in our society has stretched down to this very day and will not end until my generation is dead and buried.
Regarding the situation in Israel today, the times may be different, the conflicts may different, but the social dynamics are similar. I say, "Beware." Beware of your desire for separate societies. Beware of a way of life that cannot stand exposure to contrary points of view and still endure. Beware of creating "the other" within you own society. You may just be successful and you will regret it.
Very thoughtful and interesting. I always think that the haredi should have more confidence in their belief system; why be so afraid of a few months / years in a different environment? Obviously, as soldiers you all have to learn to trust and depend on each other. After service, everyone returns to different professions, lifestyles, etc. But underneath there would be a common experience of having worked toward a common goal. I agree this would go far toward minimizing the "separate societies." It would give everyone a sense of belonging. But I fear that the haredi do not want to "belong" and that is maddening, selfish, insulting even. They reap the benefits of the sacrifices of the rest of Israeli society.
Any nation that allows a religious fanatic section of the population to grow too large will be destroyed. Usually it will be internal division but in this case, external invasion will do the job before then. A sensible society would send these saintly fellows in front of the lines. God will respect their piety and protect them from bombs and bullets and mines, or not, in which case their piety will be proven pointless and serve an object lesson.
"will be destroyed" Or the religious become the majority and set the tone for society, which is what is slowly happening in Israel. And I'm not talking specifically about the Haredim; for decads now Israel has been undergoing a slow collective shift back to Judaism from the rationalist secular enlightenment.
That's what the protests against judicial reform were really about: a loud and raucous minority leveraging public paranoias about religious tyranny.
"G-d will respect their piety" That's not how Jewish law works. Jewish law has a firm hierarchy of values; it, like any morality, cannot demonstrate its efficacy by experimental testing.
Hardly paranoia, the history of specifically Jewish theocratic statecraft may be rather dusty but the records indicate just what the secular and moderates have to look forward to under such a system. Laws heaped up so thick you can hardly breathe and of course selectively enforced. Stoning for some, clemency for others.
You misunderstand the Haredi objection to army service.
The Rambam writes (De'os 6:1) - as a matter of Jewish law - that we are influenced by our surroundings, and we have to avoid surroundings that might influence us improperly.
The most basic function of an army is behavioral conditioning to get masses of people doing something together; we have to check very carefully what kind of behaviors are being inculcated by army service.
This is doubly true for the IDF, whose stated goal is not just to be an army, but to be a melting pot towards the creation of a largely secular common Israeli identity; a secular identity that Haredim - fully cognizant of the underlying unity of the Jewish people - neither want or need.
Worse, the upper echelons of the army, along with the judiciary, are deliberately pursuing a purely secular vision of Israel, one without any particularist loyalty to the Jewish people, and certainly not to Judaism. Forcing Haredim into the army is a part of that grand strategy, because Haredim have shown themselves the only complete demographic largely able to resist this vision.
There have been multiple efforts to create Haredi-safe army programs, but they've failed again and again at the same point: somebody somewhere in the judiciary or in the chain of command decided that Haredim in separate units with specific conditions was a violation of some cultural principle or other of great value. Fool me twice...
We'll see what happens with the Hashmonaim brigade; but the same pressures still exist.
“The most basic function of an army is behavioral conditioning to get masses of people doing something together; we have to check very carefully what kind of behaviors are being inculcated by army service.”
Nonsense the most basic function of a national army is the defense of the nation. If the hareidim don’t wish to serve then individually or collectively pack up and move to Lakewood the New Jersey state police will protect you from the surrounding enemies. The sizable number of yeshiva bocchers in Israel need to man up and contribute. I don’t see anything in our tradition that says we should take welfare from the state to study or give welfare to the students. Our sages had occupations and as for our heroes many were brutal soldiers. Just saying.
"the most basic function of a national army is the defense of the nation" No, that's the goal. How is that goal accomplished? Only by getting masses of people to do something together. There simply is no other way to organize the defense of the nation, no matter how many planes or drones or high-tech security fences the IDF has.
"If the Haredim don't wish to serve" But the Haredim do wish to serve; the opportunity is denied them by those who see the basic function of the army as social engineering; or worse, those who want to use the army as a tool for social engineering towards a secular Israel.
"collectively pack up and move to Lakewood" Consider what you're saying. If the Haredim don't knuckle under to social pressure to send their sons to the indoctrination institution that is the IDF today, you would deny them the right to live in Israel. Do you think that's fair? Especially since It was the virulently anti-religious Zionist founders of the state who forcefully imposed themselves on the old yishuv using various nondemocratic political and social shenanigans up to and including political assassination.
"I don’t see anything in our tradition that says we should take welfare from the state to study or give welfare to the students." So now we're no longer talking about army service? OK.
Your complaint is that 80% of Haredi women and >50% of Haredi men working legally isn't enough; a state of affairs that is, of course, much easier to misrepresent as "Haredim take welfare" then with actual nuance.
Are you holding out for 100% employment? Because even the general public doesn't have 100% employment. Or are you holding out for all the Haredim to go out and become high-powered doctors and lawyers, with 6-digit salaries? Why don't you address your complaint to the restaurant waiters and cab drivers of Tel Aviv? How much of Judaism do you demand the Haredim throw away before they're no longer "taking welfare" in your eyes?
"Our sages had occupations" They didn't have to choose between skilled labor where in order to become qualified one has to sit in a (generally) anti-religious environment on a daily basis for years at a time; or compete with a far cheaper unskilled labor pool (Arabs, Palestinians and foreign workers).
The minimum answer here is to create more job opportunities that accommodate Haredim; and realize that as long as there's a religious differential between Haredim and the rest of Israeli society, there will be both a wage gap and an employment gap.
"our heroes many were brutal soldiers." From what I've heard, Netzach Yehuda soldiers are extremely effective. Which is understandable, as they don't feel it necessary to bind themselves to an often impotent Western/Christian morality and thus fight with one hand tied behind their backs.
Perhaps that's something the army should learn from, instead of dithering around the "Spirit of the IDF".
Once again I completely disagree, more nonsense. The army needs soldiers. You assert Israel is an anti religious environment, your perception is astounding. I see a large part of the population refusing to serve because they are schnorors. No one says they must be front line combat troops. You make excuses they are weak.
We've already dispensed with the "shnorrers" idea. But that you - and many other Israelis - so desperately hold onto it demonstrates an irrational prejudice against Haredim, that would be unaffected by nothing the Haredim might possibly do.
That you keep shouting "nonsense" without actually engaging in anything I've said, supports this.
Also, that you think I object to Haredim serving in the front lines. I've never said anything of the sort. But you again persist in maintaining your prejudices against Haredim, this time as cowardly and cravenly reaping the fruits of others' sacrifice without doing anything themselves.
I'm not arguing that Israel is an anti-religious environment, but that powerful forces in Israel are targeting Judaism, as part of their war against Jewish particularism.
Having served 10+ years in the IDF I want to make some things clear:
* The vast majority of religious men do serve in the IDF. Chabad in particular are very proud of the number of their adherents who serve and who serve in combat units.
* The argument re the Haredi is not about the army per se -- its about taking resources from the state without any obligation to give back. The army is just the most visible means of giving of oneself to the state.
* I would NOT want Haredi guys in my unit: they are a bleepin' DANGER to the guys around them. in '82 there were proportionally more casualties in the 'hesder' units than other units because they would go into battle believing that HaShem would protect them and so they were more reckless. We had ultra-orthodox guys in our unit who were clueless about handling rifles safely, who paid off other guys to take their guard duty shifts or slept through them.
* Years ago there was a cartoon in the press that showed a Haredi guy explaining to a soldier that if the Haredi were to make yeridah [leave Israel] than who would protect the soldiers? The inference being that the Haredi offer more protection to the country by prayer and study than do the soldiers. That is the dangerous attitude that Israel is struggling with now. I would have thought that the Shoah would have conclusively proved that notion wrong.
King David fought. No one is diminishing prayer and Torah study but there are enough older religious people for this. I worry about service for people who really don’t want to serve but hope over time that can change with gradual integration.
Why is it so earth-shatteringly essential for you to drive your car through their neighborhood? You would use your car to prevent them from having separate neighborhoods; some would use the army.
That's Rabbi Kahn's point, one has to have developed the spiritual consciousness of a corrupt lawyer to twist straightforward Torah and svara to the extent of justifying such behavior. But once a person or a subculture becomes accustomed to twisting the truth, anything convenient becomes permissible.
"and all these Words that I am commanding you today shall be in your heart and you shall impress them upon your children, speak of them when you sit in you house and when you walk by the way andwhen you lie down. When you rise up bind them as a sign on your hand and they will be as a fronlet between your eyes. Put them on your doorways and on your gates."
I don't see this happening.
What happened on October 7?
Idol worship? It wasn't just the partakers, but most of the citizens of Israel are ignoring the El of Dawid.
As it has been said, "a blind and stiffnecked people"
Preasure will build and those not turning, the land will spit out.
Farthers do have a responsibility.
"Take the bulls of your lips and return. Teach your children.
I hear-tell that that ultra orthodox fellas are really outta shape an' too weak ta hoist weapons an' march distances, etc. Yeesh! frankly that alone is a shonda (mens sana in corpore sano)... I mean I know they've got their heads in da books from the time they've been tots but if they ain't schvimmin' 'er playin' baseball (thinkin' of The Chosen!) 'er sumthin'--they ain't gonna be in their best health an' they'll git picked off like sittin' ducks. There is no proscription 'bout keepin' in good health (afaik) so that's sumthin' ta be addressed first... a weak soldier puts all others 'round 'im at risk! Now I will say sumthin'--the army in the US wuz eye-openin' fer a lotta regular not so frum jooish boys from respectable homes-- hadda great uncle fought in WWII an' his first exposure ta "da laydeez" (in Belgium) wuz thanks ta his (fella jooish) platoon buddies (mercifully he didn't gitta social disease). Oy.
Let's face it, a secular platoon means exposure ta all sorts've stuff that would not sync well with orthodoxy so havin' the same require-mints in all-orthodox platoons would go a long way ta encourage the mamas of these boys feel "bettah" 'bout releasin' 'em to serve. Frankly given some of the weirdo stuff I've seen "promoted" by the US army (elevation of mental illness, payment fer gender "affirmation" surgery..., usin' software ta determine targets WITHOUT human "eyes" on these life-er-death decisions...) -- all that gives me cause ta pause an' that's in a far more secular settin'. If the IDF wants these "boys" give 'em fresh air, exercise (I'm sure a routine kin make up fer years of lack but it ain't gonna be "instant") an' at least try ta shelter 'em from inappropriate "content" that wouldn't honor their loftier / moral studies... Seems fair ta me... plus kosher vittles an' somehow... no fightin' on the Sabbath (sigh). I mean if they kin make accommodations... it would be the "righteous" thing ta do to git 'em all doin' proper "soivice." I think it's doable....????? In WWII there were very religious boys servin'--I saw photos of tefillin an' prayer books on the front. It's doable... I think?!
The Tanakh is full of holy forefathers who were soldiers, and apparently their fighting for their country did not disturb their own Torah Dome.
The reality is that when you get to the physical fight, holding up a book (or burying your head into it) is not going to stop a bullet.
You don't have to go that far. The old yishuv had a fighting force that successfully repelled Bedouin gangs.
But they didn't have to deal with rainbow flags and careless desecration of Shabbat.
The Haredi should be mindful of Hillel’s admonition: “If I’m only for myself…”
Read to the end and study Torah right now.
The military, for better or for worse, is the ultimate reflection of its surrounding society. Having served myself during the Vietnam War (my draft number was 14 and I enlisted in the U.S Navy before the Army could get me), I can say that I have met and worked with good individuals and not so good. I was exposed to people from many diverse walks of society and am better off for it. Through it all, there was one dynamic that was more important than all of the others; regardless of where we started, we were all in it together. That was our strength.
It was not until I returned from active duty that I realized that we had become two separate societies within the same country. The people who received draft deferments while in college (to study, of course), were some of the same people who learned how to despise those of us who served. I have gotten over the anger, and I no longer bear animosity against those who evaded service, but in my darker moments, it still "irritates" me when I recall so-called educated people calling us "baby killers", "chumps", " vet" (as a profanity), and other insults as you can imagine. No coming home parades for us. When I eventually attended college under the G.I. Bill, I kept my identity as a "vet" close to the vest. This division in our society has stretched down to this very day and will not end until my generation is dead and buried.
Regarding the situation in Israel today, the times may be different, the conflicts may different, but the social dynamics are similar. I say, "Beware." Beware of your desire for separate societies. Beware of a way of life that cannot stand exposure to contrary points of view and still endure. Beware of creating "the other" within you own society. You may just be successful and you will regret it.
Very thoughtful and interesting. I always think that the haredi should have more confidence in their belief system; why be so afraid of a few months / years in a different environment? Obviously, as soldiers you all have to learn to trust and depend on each other. After service, everyone returns to different professions, lifestyles, etc. But underneath there would be a common experience of having worked toward a common goal. I agree this would go far toward minimizing the "separate societies." It would give everyone a sense of belonging. But I fear that the haredi do not want to "belong" and that is maddening, selfish, insulting even. They reap the benefits of the sacrifices of the rest of Israeli society.
Any nation that allows a religious fanatic section of the population to grow too large will be destroyed. Usually it will be internal division but in this case, external invasion will do the job before then. A sensible society would send these saintly fellows in front of the lines. God will respect their piety and protect them from bombs and bullets and mines, or not, in which case their piety will be proven pointless and serve an object lesson.
"will be destroyed" Or the religious become the majority and set the tone for society, which is what is slowly happening in Israel. And I'm not talking specifically about the Haredim; for decads now Israel has been undergoing a slow collective shift back to Judaism from the rationalist secular enlightenment.
That's what the protests against judicial reform were really about: a loud and raucous minority leveraging public paranoias about religious tyranny.
"G-d will respect their piety" That's not how Jewish law works. Jewish law has a firm hierarchy of values; it, like any morality, cannot demonstrate its efficacy by experimental testing.
Hardly paranoia, the history of specifically Jewish theocratic statecraft may be rather dusty but the records indicate just what the secular and moderates have to look forward to under such a system. Laws heaped up so thick you can hardly breathe and of course selectively enforced. Stoning for some, clemency for others.
You misunderstand the Haredi objection to army service.
The Rambam writes (De'os 6:1) - as a matter of Jewish law - that we are influenced by our surroundings, and we have to avoid surroundings that might influence us improperly.
The most basic function of an army is behavioral conditioning to get masses of people doing something together; we have to check very carefully what kind of behaviors are being inculcated by army service.
This is doubly true for the IDF, whose stated goal is not just to be an army, but to be a melting pot towards the creation of a largely secular common Israeli identity; a secular identity that Haredim - fully cognizant of the underlying unity of the Jewish people - neither want or need.
Worse, the upper echelons of the army, along with the judiciary, are deliberately pursuing a purely secular vision of Israel, one without any particularist loyalty to the Jewish people, and certainly not to Judaism. Forcing Haredim into the army is a part of that grand strategy, because Haredim have shown themselves the only complete demographic largely able to resist this vision.
There have been multiple efforts to create Haredi-safe army programs, but they've failed again and again at the same point: somebody somewhere in the judiciary or in the chain of command decided that Haredim in separate units with specific conditions was a violation of some cultural principle or other of great value. Fool me twice...
We'll see what happens with the Hashmonaim brigade; but the same pressures still exist.
(For a Haredi perspective of someone who's actually served in Netzach Yehuda: https://x.com/ShimonNataf/status/1762166988304990568)
“The most basic function of an army is behavioral conditioning to get masses of people doing something together; we have to check very carefully what kind of behaviors are being inculcated by army service.”
Nonsense the most basic function of a national army is the defense of the nation. If the hareidim don’t wish to serve then individually or collectively pack up and move to Lakewood the New Jersey state police will protect you from the surrounding enemies. The sizable number of yeshiva bocchers in Israel need to man up and contribute. I don’t see anything in our tradition that says we should take welfare from the state to study or give welfare to the students. Our sages had occupations and as for our heroes many were brutal soldiers. Just saying.
"the most basic function of a national army is the defense of the nation" No, that's the goal. How is that goal accomplished? Only by getting masses of people to do something together. There simply is no other way to organize the defense of the nation, no matter how many planes or drones or high-tech security fences the IDF has.
"If the Haredim don't wish to serve" But the Haredim do wish to serve; the opportunity is denied them by those who see the basic function of the army as social engineering; or worse, those who want to use the army as a tool for social engineering towards a secular Israel.
"collectively pack up and move to Lakewood" Consider what you're saying. If the Haredim don't knuckle under to social pressure to send their sons to the indoctrination institution that is the IDF today, you would deny them the right to live in Israel. Do you think that's fair? Especially since It was the virulently anti-religious Zionist founders of the state who forcefully imposed themselves on the old yishuv using various nondemocratic political and social shenanigans up to and including political assassination.
"I don’t see anything in our tradition that says we should take welfare from the state to study or give welfare to the students." So now we're no longer talking about army service? OK.
Your complaint is that 80% of Haredi women and >50% of Haredi men working legally isn't enough; a state of affairs that is, of course, much easier to misrepresent as "Haredim take welfare" then with actual nuance.
Are you holding out for 100% employment? Because even the general public doesn't have 100% employment. Or are you holding out for all the Haredim to go out and become high-powered doctors and lawyers, with 6-digit salaries? Why don't you address your complaint to the restaurant waiters and cab drivers of Tel Aviv? How much of Judaism do you demand the Haredim throw away before they're no longer "taking welfare" in your eyes?
"Our sages had occupations" They didn't have to choose between skilled labor where in order to become qualified one has to sit in a (generally) anti-religious environment on a daily basis for years at a time; or compete with a far cheaper unskilled labor pool (Arabs, Palestinians and foreign workers).
The minimum answer here is to create more job opportunities that accommodate Haredim; and realize that as long as there's a religious differential between Haredim and the rest of Israeli society, there will be both a wage gap and an employment gap.
"our heroes many were brutal soldiers." From what I've heard, Netzach Yehuda soldiers are extremely effective. Which is understandable, as they don't feel it necessary to bind themselves to an often impotent Western/Christian morality and thus fight with one hand tied behind their backs.
Perhaps that's something the army should learn from, instead of dithering around the "Spirit of the IDF".
Once again I completely disagree, more nonsense. The army needs soldiers. You assert Israel is an anti religious environment, your perception is astounding. I see a large part of the population refusing to serve because they are schnorors. No one says they must be front line combat troops. You make excuses they are weak.
We've already dispensed with the "shnorrers" idea. But that you - and many other Israelis - so desperately hold onto it demonstrates an irrational prejudice against Haredim, that would be unaffected by nothing the Haredim might possibly do.
That you keep shouting "nonsense" without actually engaging in anything I've said, supports this.
Also, that you think I object to Haredim serving in the front lines. I've never said anything of the sort. But you again persist in maintaining your prejudices against Haredim, this time as cowardly and cravenly reaping the fruits of others' sacrifice without doing anything themselves.
I'm not arguing that Israel is an anti-religious environment, but that powerful forces in Israel are targeting Judaism, as part of their war against Jewish particularism.
Having served 10+ years in the IDF I want to make some things clear:
* The vast majority of religious men do serve in the IDF. Chabad in particular are very proud of the number of their adherents who serve and who serve in combat units.
* The argument re the Haredi is not about the army per se -- its about taking resources from the state without any obligation to give back. The army is just the most visible means of giving of oneself to the state.
* I would NOT want Haredi guys in my unit: they are a bleepin' DANGER to the guys around them. in '82 there were proportionally more casualties in the 'hesder' units than other units because they would go into battle believing that HaShem would protect them and so they were more reckless. We had ultra-orthodox guys in our unit who were clueless about handling rifles safely, who paid off other guys to take their guard duty shifts or slept through them.
* Years ago there was a cartoon in the press that showed a Haredi guy explaining to a soldier that if the Haredi were to make yeridah [leave Israel] than who would protect the soldiers? The inference being that the Haredi offer more protection to the country by prayer and study than do the soldiers. That is the dangerous attitude that Israel is struggling with now. I would have thought that the Shoah would have conclusively proved that notion wrong.
King David fought. No one is diminishing prayer and Torah study but there are enough older religious people for this. I worry about service for people who really don’t want to serve but hope over time that can change with gradual integration.
If they will throw a rock at me driving my car through their neighborhood on Shabbat..
.
Then they can throw a hand grenade....
Why is it so earth-shatteringly essential for you to drive your car through their neighborhood? You would use your car to prevent them from having separate neighborhoods; some would use the army.
That's Rabbi Kahn's point, one has to have developed the spiritual consciousness of a corrupt lawyer to twist straightforward Torah and svara to the extent of justifying such behavior. But once a person or a subculture becomes accustomed to twisting the truth, anything convenient becomes permissible.
There is no moral justification or otherwise imho.
"and all these Words that I am commanding you today shall be in your heart and you shall impress them upon your children, speak of them when you sit in you house and when you walk by the way andwhen you lie down. When you rise up bind them as a sign on your hand and they will be as a fronlet between your eyes. Put them on your doorways and on your gates."
I don't see this happening.
What happened on October 7?
Idol worship? It wasn't just the partakers, but most of the citizens of Israel are ignoring the El of Dawid.
As it has been said, "a blind and stiffnecked people"
Preasure will build and those not turning, the land will spit out.
Farthers do have a responsibility.
"Take the bulls of your lips and return. Teach your children.
I hear-tell that that ultra orthodox fellas are really outta shape an' too weak ta hoist weapons an' march distances, etc. Yeesh! frankly that alone is a shonda (mens sana in corpore sano)... I mean I know they've got their heads in da books from the time they've been tots but if they ain't schvimmin' 'er playin' baseball (thinkin' of The Chosen!) 'er sumthin'--they ain't gonna be in their best health an' they'll git picked off like sittin' ducks. There is no proscription 'bout keepin' in good health (afaik) so that's sumthin' ta be addressed first... a weak soldier puts all others 'round 'im at risk! Now I will say sumthin'--the army in the US wuz eye-openin' fer a lotta regular not so frum jooish boys from respectable homes-- hadda great uncle fought in WWII an' his first exposure ta "da laydeez" (in Belgium) wuz thanks ta his (fella jooish) platoon buddies (mercifully he didn't gitta social disease). Oy.
Let's face it, a secular platoon means exposure ta all sorts've stuff that would not sync well with orthodoxy so havin' the same require-mints in all-orthodox platoons would go a long way ta encourage the mamas of these boys feel "bettah" 'bout releasin' 'em to serve. Frankly given some of the weirdo stuff I've seen "promoted" by the US army (elevation of mental illness, payment fer gender "affirmation" surgery..., usin' software ta determine targets WITHOUT human "eyes" on these life-er-death decisions...) -- all that gives me cause ta pause an' that's in a far more secular settin'. If the IDF wants these "boys" give 'em fresh air, exercise (I'm sure a routine kin make up fer years of lack but it ain't gonna be "instant") an' at least try ta shelter 'em from inappropriate "content" that wouldn't honor their loftier / moral studies... Seems fair ta me... plus kosher vittles an' somehow... no fightin' on the Sabbath (sigh). I mean if they kin make accommodations... it would be the "righteous" thing ta do to git 'em all doin' proper "soivice." I think it's doable....????? In WWII there were very religious boys servin'--I saw photos of tefillin an' prayer books on the front. It's doable... I think?!
I couldn't agree more. Compelling arguments, all.