You could start your ceasing to use the word "occupation." Not only is the land in question disputed rather than occupied but virtually the entire Palestinian population is ruled by the corrupt Jew hating Palestinian Authority or the murderous Jew hating Hamas.
East Jerusalem is disputed but Israel doesn't actually claim anything else. Israel has never annexed Area C and does not actually claim that it is part of Israel. The West Bank / J+S is governed differently from Green Line Israel, East Jerusalem, Golan Heights, etc.
I do think occupied is the right word. Even if you disagree about the WB/J+S, you agree that Israel is currently occupying at least large areas of Gaza, yes? As it should. I agree with your description of the PA and the Hamas.
What makes you believe that I think they would? I don't think they would.
The IDF needs to continue the occupation for the foreseeable future. Otherwise you'll have a repeat of Gaza.
In any hypothetical future two-state solution, there would be special arrangements for East Jerusalem, with Israel getting the Jewish Quarter. And also, if the Palestinians at some point actually become willing to accept a two-state solution, then they will have changed a lot and became much less antisemitic and freedom of worship won't be an issue anymore. We are at least two decades away from any such hypothetical, if one ever comes to pass at all.
The secular left in Israel which subscribes woke post Zionism seeks to make Israel culturally like Sweden with no room for religion in the public arena
Allowing public transportation on Shabbat, at least in secular areas like Tel Aviv, is hardly "turning Israel into Sweden". No one is talking about Israel taking in tons of Muslim and African asylum seekers like Sweden did.
Many center-right and right-wingers in Sweden want to made Sweden more like Israel, a Swedish and democratic state committed to a Swedish majority and not to African and Muslim migration. They don't want to introduce Lutheran-inspired policies to shut down all public transportation on Sunday.
The old leftist atheist agnostic secular Zionist was, at the core, spiritual. No? I inherited a great little rare book…David Ben Gurion’s Bible studies. Israel needs to import America’s arms not our perversions. Do not profane the Sabbath with a law to buy and sell. The next law will be the rights of drag queens in kindergartens. Israel, we are set apart.
Any time the Left is falling apart is a good time. The Left doesn’t have a monopoly on social issues. And they never leave a victory alone. They always push it farther to the Left, by a mile. Because what they actually want is power. Equal rights are just the Trojan horse. We’ve seen this in every advanced Western democracy. And fwiw not being on the Left is not tantamount to being a fascist. The Left is a festering carbuncle on the nether regions of the body politic.
I think the Israeli left is far better than the left in most other countries. I wish the US Democratic Party was run by a guy with 5 kids who saved people from a huge terrorist attack. You know what Yair Golan did on October 7. Someone like Yair Golan or Chuck Freilich has no illusions about the Palestinians. He is no Zehava Gal-On.
I've never heard any Israeli leftist advocate for giving children puberty blockers and trans surgery. They cannot be compared to the US left at all. And while many American leftists attack the judiciary, Israeli leftists defend their judiciary. No one on the Israeli left supports anything like Biden's immigration policy of letting in tons of illegal immigrants. And so on and so forth.
I don't think that the US Democratic Party was behind the Trump assassination. Of course the guy who tried to assassinate him obviously preferred Harris to win, but he was a nutty lone wolf. I don't think he was even a registered Democrat. He certainly wasn't sent by the DNC, lol.
This certainly cannot still be true. Yet you use this 6–7-year-old poll to promote the outdated 2-state final solution. I completely reject the notion of a 2-state final solution which we all know will be a terrorist state, and I'm certain the vast majority of Israelis feel the same. No wonder the left parties in Israel are becoming extinct. How can anyone even think this way after October 7. It was clear even before that "palestinian" society consists of genocidal maniacs. They had sovereignty in Gaza and October 7 was the result. Yet here you are persisting in this insane idea of statehood. Also, I reject the claim that Israel is occupying territory. Who exactly did Judea and Samaria belong to before Israel's alleged "occupation"?
"According to the 2017-2018 National Security Index, 55 percent of Israeli Jews support the two-state solution (as do 96 percent of Arab Israelis). This is not empty support for a slogan but true acknowledgement of what this would demand: 63 percent of Israelis support evacuation of settlements as part of a permanent agreement with the Palestinians, while only 27 percent are opposed. In other words, the public is still consistent in supporting this solution".
RE: "Who exactly did Judea and Samaria belong to before Israel's alleged 'occupation'?"
Not Israel. So that's why it's considered "occupied". Of course, it did not belong to "Palestine" either. Before the Six-Day War, Israel had different borders. During the war, the IDF entered the West Bank and has not left. Israel did not annex the West Bank (other than East Jerusalem). So it's considered occupied from a legal perspective.
This is purely a legal claim, not a moral one. It's with good reason the IDF does not leave the West Bank. They left Gaza and look what happened.
Obviously there cannot be a two-state solution anytime soon, because of the radicalism and extremism of the Palestinian society. Perhaps some number of decades down the line, after the Palestinian society goes through some big changes.
It was illegally occupied by Jordan between 1948-1967. Jordan started a war with Israel in 1967, lost the war and lost Judea and Samaria to Israel. They are not "occupied" territories. The territories belong to Israel according to the laws of war. That's not to mention Judea and Samaria's historical Jewish connection. It's in the NAME of the territory, Judea and Samaria, which was its name until 1948 when Jordan renamed it the "west bank".
This was a very interesting piece although I think it is highly unlikely that the Palestinians will give up their demand that all descendants of the 1948 refugees be allowed to return. I also do t see them recognizing Israel within any borders. Not until the population is deradicalized. I just don’t think it’s realistic. Can you provide a link to the 2017-18 survey you mentioned?
"For too long the Right has used the Second Intifada and rockets from Gaza as a bludgeon against leftists, hypocritically refusing to take responsibility for the near-constant violence we have seen in the last 20 years, near constantly under Right-wing leadership."
Here's a crazy thought: Perhaps the Israeli government is not responsible for the second intifada and the rockets raining down on civilians, no morethan a rape victim "brought it on herself."
Consider this: The Palestinians have been ejected en masse from every Arab country they have gone into because time and again they have been a social and political destabilizing force.
In keeping with their charters' calls to wipe out the state of Israel and eliminate the Jews, the local Arab factions acted when they felt Israel was weakest. On the one hand Israel's supposed allies were calling for it to create a (terror) state on its borders out of Judea and Samaria and Gaza. On the other, the street, media, and some knesset members' demands that the government give these local Arabs what they wanted did not constitute appeasement but rather was the only just path that would induce them to shower us with love.
"According to the 2017-2018 National Security Index, 55 percent of Israeli Jews support the two-state solution (as do 96 percent of Arab Israelis). This is not empty support for a slogan but true acknowledgement of what this would demand: 63 percent of Israelis support evacuation of settlements as part of a permanent agreement with the Palestinians, while only 27 percent are opposed. In other words, the public is still consistent in supporting this solution."
Oct. 7th may have changed a few Israeli minds about the advisability of a two-state solution. It would be much like the Rwandan Tutsis saying if we gave the Hutus what they want, they would welcome us with open arms — yes, if those arms were locked and loaded.
"included in this program must be the refusal to remove soldiers from outside of Israel’s border. The Left must reiterate, if it is to make security its primary issue, that occupation of territory which can be weaponized"
If one reads the charters of the champions of a Palestinian state, listen to the oft repeated declarations of their leaders, and noted the consistency of their actions, one can only declare "Thus endeth the two-state solution."
Israel is not a theocracy. More separation of synagogue and state definitely wouldn't make it "no different from the US", it still has the law of return, chief rabbis, public holidays on Jewish holidays, and so on. But there should be public transportation on Shabbat, at least in secular areas.
There are Christian countries in Europe like England, Denmark, and Greece where you can shop on Sunday.
The US isn't so secular of a country, Christianity is a big thing here and is a big part of our culture and politics.
Something like a third of Jewish newborns in Israel are from Haredi families. There is no reason whatsoever to worry about Israel becoming too secular.
Israel is a first-world liberal democracy. The law of the land is supreme, not halakhic law. Halakhic law certainly guides the lives of the religious people, who are citizens of the democracy, and can be an inspiration and influence for some of the laws. But there should be public transport on Shabbat, at least in secular areas. Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people. It's a democracy, and most Jewish people are not Orthodox.
Israel was the first country to have widespread vaccinations and it has a massive TFR. Most Haredim were vaccinated. Haredim have higher TFR because they choose to have more kids.
It's 11801, which is for instance 10 times higher than the death toll from October 7. Flu kills a few dozen per year in Israel, maybe. Even the swine flu killed 94.
The vaccine is safe and effective. Israel did a great thing by being a leader in it. Tons of lives were saved.
A 2018 survey is way too old to be the basis of planning in the current climate, particularly with regard to support for a two state solution which I think most people now realise can not happen until the Palestinians can be deradicalised which will take a generation.
You could start your ceasing to use the word "occupation." Not only is the land in question disputed rather than occupied but virtually the entire Palestinian population is ruled by the corrupt Jew hating Palestinian Authority or the murderous Jew hating Hamas.
East Jerusalem is disputed but Israel doesn't actually claim anything else. Israel has never annexed Area C and does not actually claim that it is part of Israel. The West Bank / J+S is governed differently from Green Line Israel, East Jerusalem, Golan Heights, etc.
I do think occupied is the right word. Even if you disagree about the WB/J+S, you agree that Israel is currently occupying at least large areas of Gaza, yes? As it should. I agree with your description of the PA and the Hamas.
What makes you believe that I think they would? I don't think they would.
The IDF needs to continue the occupation for the foreseeable future. Otherwise you'll have a repeat of Gaza.
In any hypothetical future two-state solution, there would be special arrangements for East Jerusalem, with Israel getting the Jewish Quarter. And also, if the Palestinians at some point actually become willing to accept a two-state solution, then they will have changed a lot and became much less antisemitic and freedom of worship won't be an issue anymore. We are at least two decades away from any such hypothetical, if one ever comes to pass at all.
Turning Israel into Sweden is not a winning political platform
The secular left in Israel which subscribes woke post Zionism seeks to make Israel culturally like Sweden with no room for religion in the public arena
Allowing public transportation on Shabbat, at least in secular areas like Tel Aviv, is hardly "turning Israel into Sweden". No one is talking about Israel taking in tons of Muslim and African asylum seekers like Sweden did.
Many center-right and right-wingers in Sweden want to made Sweden more like Israel, a Swedish and democratic state committed to a Swedish majority and not to African and Muslim migration. They don't want to introduce Lutheran-inspired policies to shut down all public transportation on Sunday.
The old leftist atheist agnostic secular Zionist was, at the core, spiritual. No? I inherited a great little rare book…David Ben Gurion’s Bible studies. Israel needs to import America’s arms not our perversions. Do not profane the Sabbath with a law to buy and sell. The next law will be the rights of drag queens in kindergartens. Israel, we are set apart.
Any time the Left is falling apart is a good time. The Left doesn’t have a monopoly on social issues. And they never leave a victory alone. They always push it farther to the Left, by a mile. Because what they actually want is power. Equal rights are just the Trojan horse. We’ve seen this in every advanced Western democracy. And fwiw not being on the Left is not tantamount to being a fascist. The Left is a festering carbuncle on the nether regions of the body politic.
I think the Israeli left is far better than the left in most other countries. I wish the US Democratic Party was run by a guy with 5 kids who saved people from a huge terrorist attack. You know what Yair Golan did on October 7. Someone like Yair Golan or Chuck Freilich has no illusions about the Palestinians. He is no Zehava Gal-On.
I've never heard any Israeli leftist advocate for giving children puberty blockers and trans surgery. They cannot be compared to the US left at all. And while many American leftists attack the judiciary, Israeli leftists defend their judiciary. No one on the Israeli left supports anything like Biden's immigration policy of letting in tons of illegal immigrants. And so on and so forth.
I don't think that the US Democratic Party was behind the Trump assassination. Of course the guy who tried to assassinate him obviously preferred Harris to win, but he was a nutty lone wolf. I don't think he was even a registered Democrat. He certainly wasn't sent by the DNC, lol.
This certainly cannot still be true. Yet you use this 6–7-year-old poll to promote the outdated 2-state final solution. I completely reject the notion of a 2-state final solution which we all know will be a terrorist state, and I'm certain the vast majority of Israelis feel the same. No wonder the left parties in Israel are becoming extinct. How can anyone even think this way after October 7. It was clear even before that "palestinian" society consists of genocidal maniacs. They had sovereignty in Gaza and October 7 was the result. Yet here you are persisting in this insane idea of statehood. Also, I reject the claim that Israel is occupying territory. Who exactly did Judea and Samaria belong to before Israel's alleged "occupation"?
................................................................................................................................................................................................
"According to the 2017-2018 National Security Index, 55 percent of Israeli Jews support the two-state solution (as do 96 percent of Arab Israelis). This is not empty support for a slogan but true acknowledgement of what this would demand: 63 percent of Israelis support evacuation of settlements as part of a permanent agreement with the Palestinians, while only 27 percent are opposed. In other words, the public is still consistent in supporting this solution".
RE: "Who exactly did Judea and Samaria belong to before Israel's alleged 'occupation'?"
Not Israel. So that's why it's considered "occupied". Of course, it did not belong to "Palestine" either. Before the Six-Day War, Israel had different borders. During the war, the IDF entered the West Bank and has not left. Israel did not annex the West Bank (other than East Jerusalem). So it's considered occupied from a legal perspective.
This is purely a legal claim, not a moral one. It's with good reason the IDF does not leave the West Bank. They left Gaza and look what happened.
Obviously there cannot be a two-state solution anytime soon, because of the radicalism and extremism of the Palestinian society. Perhaps some number of decades down the line, after the Palestinian society goes through some big changes.
It was illegally occupied by Jordan between 1948-1967. Jordan started a war with Israel in 1967, lost the war and lost Judea and Samaria to Israel. They are not "occupied" territories. The territories belong to Israel according to the laws of war. That's not to mention Judea and Samaria's historical Jewish connection. It's in the NAME of the territory, Judea and Samaria, which was its name until 1948 when Jordan renamed it the "west bank".
I don’t think that’s how the laws of war work. International law is kind of a joke anyway in any case.
This was a very interesting piece although I think it is highly unlikely that the Palestinians will give up their demand that all descendants of the 1948 refugees be allowed to return. I also do t see them recognizing Israel within any borders. Not until the population is deradicalized. I just don’t think it’s realistic. Can you provide a link to the 2017-18 survey you mentioned?
For a cogent last word on the Left, their aspirations, and the reality of the situation, read this: https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-832518
"For too long the Right has used the Second Intifada and rockets from Gaza as a bludgeon against leftists, hypocritically refusing to take responsibility for the near-constant violence we have seen in the last 20 years, near constantly under Right-wing leadership."
Here's a crazy thought: Perhaps the Israeli government is not responsible for the second intifada and the rockets raining down on civilians, no morethan a rape victim "brought it on herself."
Consider this: The Palestinians have been ejected en masse from every Arab country they have gone into because time and again they have been a social and political destabilizing force.
In keeping with their charters' calls to wipe out the state of Israel and eliminate the Jews, the local Arab factions acted when they felt Israel was weakest. On the one hand Israel's supposed allies were calling for it to create a (terror) state on its borders out of Judea and Samaria and Gaza. On the other, the street, media, and some knesset members' demands that the government give these local Arabs what they wanted did not constitute appeasement but rather was the only just path that would induce them to shower us with love.
"According to the 2017-2018 National Security Index, 55 percent of Israeli Jews support the two-state solution (as do 96 percent of Arab Israelis). This is not empty support for a slogan but true acknowledgement of what this would demand: 63 percent of Israelis support evacuation of settlements as part of a permanent agreement with the Palestinians, while only 27 percent are opposed. In other words, the public is still consistent in supporting this solution."
Oct. 7th may have changed a few Israeli minds about the advisability of a two-state solution. It would be much like the Rwandan Tutsis saying if we gave the Hutus what they want, they would welcome us with open arms — yes, if those arms were locked and loaded.
"included in this program must be the refusal to remove soldiers from outside of Israel’s border. The Left must reiterate, if it is to make security its primary issue, that occupation of territory which can be weaponized"
If one reads the charters of the champions of a Palestinian state, listen to the oft repeated declarations of their leaders, and noted the consistency of their actions, one can only declare "Thus endeth the two-state solution."
The Left barely exists at all in Israel, which the article just kinda glosses over. The choice is between far right and extremely right.
Israel is not a theocracy. More separation of synagogue and state definitely wouldn't make it "no different from the US", it still has the law of return, chief rabbis, public holidays on Jewish holidays, and so on. But there should be public transportation on Shabbat, at least in secular areas.
There are Christian countries in Europe like England, Denmark, and Greece where you can shop on Sunday.
The US isn't so secular of a country, Christianity is a big thing here and is a big part of our culture and politics.
Something like a third of Jewish newborns in Israel are from Haredi families. There is no reason whatsoever to worry about Israel becoming too secular.
Indeed. What sets Israel apart…
Israel is a first-world liberal democracy. The law of the land is supreme, not halakhic law. Halakhic law certainly guides the lives of the religious people, who are citizens of the democracy, and can be an inspiration and influence for some of the laws. But there should be public transport on Shabbat, at least in secular areas. Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people. It's a democracy, and most Jewish people are not Orthodox.
Israel was the first country to have widespread vaccinations and it has a massive TFR. Most Haredim were vaccinated. Haredim have higher TFR because they choose to have more kids.
It's 11801, which is for instance 10 times higher than the death toll from October 7. Flu kills a few dozen per year in Israel, maybe. Even the swine flu killed 94.
The vaccine is safe and effective. Israel did a great thing by being a leader in it. Tons of lives were saved.
Hi Alex. It was indeed written a year ago. The Future of Jewish republished it.
A 2018 survey is way too old to be the basis of planning in the current climate, particularly with regard to support for a two state solution which I think most people now realise can not happen until the Palestinians can be deradicalised which will take a generation.
You’re than welcome to head over to my page, or Blake’s, where there are many pieces discussing developments in various fields including this topic.