I’m going to say something shocking. I don’t care how many Palestinians are the collateral damage in this war. They don’t exist because the term Palestinian is an ancient Roman insult to the Hebrew people. It has never been a distinct culture, people, or nation. What they are is Arabs who occupy certain territories in Israel - hating us, teaching their children to hate us – and electing terrorists to kill us. They always strike first and like the cowards they are – run to the UN and cry that Israel is victimizing them when we hit back hard.
Israel has followed international law every step of the way regarding its treatment of the Arab civilians in Gaza. If civilians are suffering it's their leaders’ fault: Hamas. Leaders who use them as human shields and steal the international aid that comes their way. Leaders who invent casualties that cannot be verified. Leaders who’ve committed the most heinous acts of murder and torture against Jews since the Holocaust. Leaders who still hold Israeli hostages in the most horrible conditions.
So I don’t give a damn how many so-called Palestinians have died. Let the remaining ones get the hell out of Gaza and everywhere else in Israel - and take their murdering leaders with them.
Hamas did not drag the Palestinians in Gaza into war. They all went happily. So the answer to your question is simply: not enough apparently. One should stop talking about innocent Palestinians because there are none. One should never have used that phrase in the first place.
I agree. My phrasing wasn't strong enough. The so-called Palestinians elected Hamas and allowed other terrorists like Arafat to lead them. They submitted to every Muslim leader who called them to Jihad against Israel and Jews generally. There are those who say they were coerced by their leaders. Maybe a minority were coerced. But that is neither here nor there. The vast majority were not coerced. They are not innocents; just like the Germans who elected Hitler and chose to carry out the orders of his Nazi regime were not innocent. Tragically, the "woke virus" that arbitrarily labels some people "victims" and does not hold them responsible for their actions (and inactions) is the underlying problem here. That and the anti-Semitism which seems to be part of too many gentiles' DNA. Which is why I don't give a rat's ass about Palestinians and encourage a strong, hawkish stance by Israel on the matter. What does Israel have to lose? One problem I foresee is Trump, if he decides to play "let's make a deal" with the devil and expects Israel to go along like a good little slave and absorb the Palestinians into Israel instead of booting them the hell out. Israeli leftists might push for the same thing. I have a sickening feeling that's what's going to happen. Hope I'm wrong.
The acceptable number of dead Palestinians in this conflict is a question for Hamas and the Gaza population who voted them into government. They are going to continue be killed while they hold hostages and maintain the rage to kill Jews and eliminate Israel. Its not question for Jews or Israel.
Because this war involves Israel, the international reaction: no number of Palestinian deaths in Gaza could be low enough. There is no Hamas or simply combatants do not exist.
Because this war involves Israel, the international reaction: no number of Israeli deaths is high enough. There are no hostages to consider.
That's the number of German civilians killed during the Allied Strategic Air Offensive in WW2, which firebombed every German city with population over 100,000. The end result was 80+ years of peace in Western Europe.
It's time for 80+ years of peace in the Middle East.
After seeing the nauseating Palestinian support for the Oct 7 atrocities, nothing less will do. For anti-Israel protestors, it should come as a welcome respite from the "Nazi tactics" they believe they've been seeing.
Hamas has already set the standard. One Jew for 1000 Palestinians. That's the number of Palestinians traded for Galit in 2011. The Palestinians should consider themselves very, very, lucky.
Has there ever been an act of war against a nation where the attacked nation was told not to fight back? And if they fought back, where a condition was that civilian casualties were not allowed? Oct 7 was as much an act of war as Pearl Harbour. The problem is that people buy into the propaganda that Judea and Samaria and the Palestinian Arabs are a unique nation and that they have been oppressed, and thus, this 1200 dead is ok as it was kind of deserved. Or people feel Israel shouldn’t be there - and then that this means that Israel should accept a continual war and missiles forever. Of course, the criteria that are used to delegitimize the formation of Israel had never been used against another country. It’s remarkable, as is remarkable the unique permanent refuge status of the Palestinian Arabs. The only logical answer is that the uniqueness is because the real driving force is anti-Semitism, not statehood. The other incredible thing is that Palestinian Arabs don’t want the hostages released and that somehow the world still loves a terrorist army that deliberately and strategically wants its population to die as sacrifices for their cause, even though Hamas themselves are too cowardly to fight above ground. If an alien came to the world and examined all history, they would never understand the treatment of Israel. Where are the Gazans on the streets telling Hamas to release the hostages and lay down their arms?
When folk make the argument of "proportionality" in comparing the number of Israeli dead to Palestinian dead, I say to them "are you suggesting Israel isn't firing enough rockets and missiles into Gaza?" Because of course many times more missiles and rockets have been launched from Gaza into Israel than the reverse. As for the number of Israeli dead, I ask if they are disappointed that more Israelis aren't dead. Because that is what I am hearing. As a final coda to this viewpoint, I suggest they not fault the terrorists for not being able to slaughter more Jews than they already have. After all, it isn't for lack of trying.
The doctrine of proportionality actually refers to the level of collateral / civilian deaths that is acceptable to attain a particular military accomplishment. For example killing 100 civilians to eliminate a low-level fighter, but it might be totally acceptable (proportional) to eliminate a Sinwar-level fighter. It does not refer to any kind of tit-for tat retaliation model.
For a much better explanation of proportionality, check out brilliant barrister Natasha Hausdorff, who is part of UK Lawyers for Israel (UKLFI). She is amazing and fighters for Israel every day in the totally corrupt internation criminal court and other internation and UK forums. She has lots of videos from TV appearances, other events and presentations. Worth your time!
Yes, Natasha Hausdorff is excellent. I've listened to her many times, including a Munk Debate where she teamed with Douglas Murray against the idiot Mehdi Hasan and a left wing Israeli whose name I put out of mind.
A conversation revealed that the narrative says that the Arabs killed 1200 Israelis and the Israeli forces killed 40,000 poor Palestinians. (Mostly civilians). I pointed out that the Arabs had shot over 4,400 rockets into Israel during the month of October. Why aren’t more Israeli people dead ? Well, they have bomb shelters. The Hamas won’t let the civilians use their tunnels as bomb shelter.
The simplest explanation changed the way one person saw the war, the Israeli people and the sad situation the Arabs have created for themselves.
Of course the rocket attacks on Israel are not in the news. I don’t know why.
There are two types of people who ask this kind of question. One type feels that Israel has no right to exist and no right to defend itself. It's pointless to discuss anything with people like this. The other type is like my mother, who is old enough at 103 to remember World War 2. She muttered something to me about dead Palestinians and I asked her how much thought she gave during World War 2 about dead German children. She responded, "none."
Number? In my judgment, it is the quality of the number that counts, not the quantity. Continue to drop enough munitions on the right heads until the entire leadership has made its final pilgrimage to their promised land, release all of the hostages (dead and alive), surrender unconditionally, and the count will stop.
The actual answer to how many dead Palestinians is acceptable is a question: How many dead Palestinians is acceptable to Hamas before they give back the hostages and surrender? All the Palestinian deaths are on them.
Israel made a critical mistake by declaring war on Hamas and not the Palestinians. I'm WWII, we didn't declare war on the Nazis, we declared war on Germany. The Palestinians democratically elected these Hamas animals and they continue to support them. If you don't like it, surrender and turn over the hostages!
As a side note: one comment mentions your “tight sentences” or some such and I wanted to say that during the past months it seems to me your writing gets better and better- it’s not just the ideas, it’s the way those ideas are expressed ( sorry, English comp adjunct prof; can’t help it).
Love your article Joshua , your sarcasm utterly brilliant....At this time there are wars in the world but only Israel is demanded to watch the Palestinians civilians The Media is always showing the Palestinians casualties, seldom do the Israel s ......Doble standards as usual .....
Outstanding Joshua. Quite outstanding. As usual, that does not preclude me reaching out into the ethos of quandary. Since Oct. 8, 2023 I claim there are two crucial points required for the foreseeable future a) The BIG Lesson; i.e. the big lesson for us Jewish persons of all persuasions; and, b) Now What; i.e. now what are we actually supposed to do about IT? IT being the quagmire of the 7 or 8 fronts and growing War that is now becoming filled with the most astonishing victories bordering on 'miraculous yet tragic'. Besides the horror of stupidity and cruelty exposed in 100s of cities 'occupied' by the numbskulls you point out so beautifully in shapely tight sentences; besides those numbskulls (of whom many are 'of the tribe') there is The Us and what exactly are The We supposed to DO. I think being professionally polite and calling certain Arab groupings 'palestinians' is past its Use-By-Date. I'm fine with calling them also where applicable hamas and its sympathizers or his-bull-thugs and its sympathizers etc. But 'palestinians', I'm not sure what and who that may be. I'm okay with "so-called 'palestinians' ". Nonetheless what are The We supposed to DO? If ya ask me and certainly I am not imagining anyone anywhere asking me "what are The We supposed to DO"? Nonetheless #2 - I think/imagine/dream that M.M. Schneerson who was an uber schmardt fellow who was well educated in Science and Mathematics etc... he suggested a la The Sound of Music ... "Let's start at the very beginning..." a) pick one or more of his suggested "10 Mitzvot" and stick with that or those. For quite some time. b) he suggested "Living with the Times" i.e. Jewish persons and the Jewish People would benefit (possibly in the VERY near future) by 'living with the Times' as in daily, chronological readings and MINIMAL study of the Torah's parasha/parashot. For quite some time. The Trapp Family or the librettist of the Musical gave the wisdom of "... start at the very beginning... because that's a very good place to start". THAT could possibly cause some serious positive repercussions to begin some positive ripple effects. Inside The Us and outside. It is now our Now What Time. Our choice. Individually and collectively. But without us say sampling what one of our Elders has suggested so simply we are doomed to keep facing all sorts of venomous numbnuts for some strange foreseeable long time - without DOING anything in our own capacities as Jewish persons.
I’m going to say something shocking. I don’t care how many Palestinians are the collateral damage in this war. They don’t exist because the term Palestinian is an ancient Roman insult to the Hebrew people. It has never been a distinct culture, people, or nation. What they are is Arabs who occupy certain territories in Israel - hating us, teaching their children to hate us – and electing terrorists to kill us. They always strike first and like the cowards they are – run to the UN and cry that Israel is victimizing them when we hit back hard.
Israel has followed international law every step of the way regarding its treatment of the Arab civilians in Gaza. If civilians are suffering it's their leaders’ fault: Hamas. Leaders who use them as human shields and steal the international aid that comes their way. Leaders who invent casualties that cannot be verified. Leaders who’ve committed the most heinous acts of murder and torture against Jews since the Holocaust. Leaders who still hold Israeli hostages in the most horrible conditions.
So I don’t give a damn how many so-called Palestinians have died. Let the remaining ones get the hell out of Gaza and everywhere else in Israel - and take their murdering leaders with them.
Hamas did not drag the Palestinians in Gaza into war. They all went happily. So the answer to your question is simply: not enough apparently. One should stop talking about innocent Palestinians because there are none. One should never have used that phrase in the first place.
I agree. My phrasing wasn't strong enough. The so-called Palestinians elected Hamas and allowed other terrorists like Arafat to lead them. They submitted to every Muslim leader who called them to Jihad against Israel and Jews generally. There are those who say they were coerced by their leaders. Maybe a minority were coerced. But that is neither here nor there. The vast majority were not coerced. They are not innocents; just like the Germans who elected Hitler and chose to carry out the orders of his Nazi regime were not innocent. Tragically, the "woke virus" that arbitrarily labels some people "victims" and does not hold them responsible for their actions (and inactions) is the underlying problem here. That and the anti-Semitism which seems to be part of too many gentiles' DNA. Which is why I don't give a rat's ass about Palestinians and encourage a strong, hawkish stance by Israel on the matter. What does Israel have to lose? One problem I foresee is Trump, if he decides to play "let's make a deal" with the devil and expects Israel to go along like a good little slave and absorb the Palestinians into Israel instead of booting them the hell out. Israeli leftists might push for the same thing. I have a sickening feeling that's what's going to happen. Hope I'm wrong.
I think at this point much of the world has sunken into so much hatred of Israel it does not allow Israel a right to self-defense at all.
The acceptable number of dead Palestinians in this conflict is a question for Hamas and the Gaza population who voted them into government. They are going to continue be killed while they hold hostages and maintain the rage to kill Jews and eliminate Israel. Its not question for Jews or Israel.
Because this war involves Israel, the international reaction: no number of Palestinian deaths in Gaza could be low enough. There is no Hamas or simply combatants do not exist.
Because this war involves Israel, the international reaction: no number of Israeli deaths is high enough. There are no hostages to consider.
Humanity has lost its way.
"How many dead Palestinians would be acceptable?"
Since Oct 7 the answer is easy: 650,000
That's the number of German civilians killed during the Allied Strategic Air Offensive in WW2, which firebombed every German city with population over 100,000. The end result was 80+ years of peace in Western Europe.
It's time for 80+ years of peace in the Middle East.
After seeing the nauseating Palestinian support for the Oct 7 atrocities, nothing less will do. For anti-Israel protestors, it should come as a welcome respite from the "Nazi tactics" they believe they've been seeing.
https://www.jns.org/three-in-four-palestinians-support-hamass-massacre/
Total agreement here. I’m tired of the whole notion of a kinder gentler sort of war, as if it’s a debate in a lecture hall.
Hamas has already set the standard. One Jew for 1000 Palestinians. That's the number of Palestinians traded for Galit in 2011. The Palestinians should consider themselves very, very, lucky.
Has there ever been an act of war against a nation where the attacked nation was told not to fight back? And if they fought back, where a condition was that civilian casualties were not allowed? Oct 7 was as much an act of war as Pearl Harbour. The problem is that people buy into the propaganda that Judea and Samaria and the Palestinian Arabs are a unique nation and that they have been oppressed, and thus, this 1200 dead is ok as it was kind of deserved. Or people feel Israel shouldn’t be there - and then that this means that Israel should accept a continual war and missiles forever. Of course, the criteria that are used to delegitimize the formation of Israel had never been used against another country. It’s remarkable, as is remarkable the unique permanent refuge status of the Palestinian Arabs. The only logical answer is that the uniqueness is because the real driving force is anti-Semitism, not statehood. The other incredible thing is that Palestinian Arabs don’t want the hostages released and that somehow the world still loves a terrorist army that deliberately and strategically wants its population to die as sacrifices for their cause, even though Hamas themselves are too cowardly to fight above ground. If an alien came to the world and examined all history, they would never understand the treatment of Israel. Where are the Gazans on the streets telling Hamas to release the hostages and lay down their arms?
When folk make the argument of "proportionality" in comparing the number of Israeli dead to Palestinian dead, I say to them "are you suggesting Israel isn't firing enough rockets and missiles into Gaza?" Because of course many times more missiles and rockets have been launched from Gaza into Israel than the reverse. As for the number of Israeli dead, I ask if they are disappointed that more Israelis aren't dead. Because that is what I am hearing. As a final coda to this viewpoint, I suggest they not fault the terrorists for not being able to slaughter more Jews than they already have. After all, it isn't for lack of trying.
The doctrine of proportionality actually refers to the level of collateral / civilian deaths that is acceptable to attain a particular military accomplishment. For example killing 100 civilians to eliminate a low-level fighter, but it might be totally acceptable (proportional) to eliminate a Sinwar-level fighter. It does not refer to any kind of tit-for tat retaliation model.
For a much better explanation of proportionality, check out brilliant barrister Natasha Hausdorff, who is part of UK Lawyers for Israel (UKLFI). She is amazing and fighters for Israel every day in the totally corrupt internation criminal court and other internation and UK forums. She has lots of videos from TV appearances, other events and presentations. Worth your time!
Yes, Natasha Hausdorff is excellent. I've listened to her many times, including a Munk Debate where she teamed with Douglas Murray against the idiot Mehdi Hasan and a left wing Israeli whose name I put out of mind.
A conversation revealed that the narrative says that the Arabs killed 1200 Israelis and the Israeli forces killed 40,000 poor Palestinians. (Mostly civilians). I pointed out that the Arabs had shot over 4,400 rockets into Israel during the month of October. Why aren’t more Israeli people dead ? Well, they have bomb shelters. The Hamas won’t let the civilians use their tunnels as bomb shelter.
The simplest explanation changed the way one person saw the war, the Israeli people and the sad situation the Arabs have created for themselves.
Of course the rocket attacks on Israel are not in the news. I don’t know why.
There are two types of people who ask this kind of question. One type feels that Israel has no right to exist and no right to defend itself. It's pointless to discuss anything with people like this. The other type is like my mother, who is old enough at 103 to remember World War 2. She muttered something to me about dead Palestinians and I asked her how much thought she gave during World War 2 about dead German children. She responded, "none."
Number? In my judgment, it is the quality of the number that counts, not the quantity. Continue to drop enough munitions on the right heads until the entire leadership has made its final pilgrimage to their promised land, release all of the hostages (dead and alive), surrender unconditionally, and the count will stop.
And once again, please come in miniature form, and live on my shoulder.
The actual answer to how many dead Palestinians is acceptable is a question: How many dead Palestinians is acceptable to Hamas before they give back the hostages and surrender? All the Palestinian deaths are on them.
Israel made a critical mistake by declaring war on Hamas and not the Palestinians. I'm WWII, we didn't declare war on the Nazis, we declared war on Germany. The Palestinians democratically elected these Hamas animals and they continue to support them. If you don't like it, surrender and turn over the hostages!
As a side note: one comment mentions your “tight sentences” or some such and I wanted to say that during the past months it seems to me your writing gets better and better- it’s not just the ideas, it’s the way those ideas are expressed ( sorry, English comp adjunct prof; can’t help it).
Love your article Joshua , your sarcasm utterly brilliant....At this time there are wars in the world but only Israel is demanded to watch the Palestinians civilians The Media is always showing the Palestinians casualties, seldom do the Israel s ......Doble standards as usual .....
Outstanding Joshua. Quite outstanding. As usual, that does not preclude me reaching out into the ethos of quandary. Since Oct. 8, 2023 I claim there are two crucial points required for the foreseeable future a) The BIG Lesson; i.e. the big lesson for us Jewish persons of all persuasions; and, b) Now What; i.e. now what are we actually supposed to do about IT? IT being the quagmire of the 7 or 8 fronts and growing War that is now becoming filled with the most astonishing victories bordering on 'miraculous yet tragic'. Besides the horror of stupidity and cruelty exposed in 100s of cities 'occupied' by the numbskulls you point out so beautifully in shapely tight sentences; besides those numbskulls (of whom many are 'of the tribe') there is The Us and what exactly are The We supposed to DO. I think being professionally polite and calling certain Arab groupings 'palestinians' is past its Use-By-Date. I'm fine with calling them also where applicable hamas and its sympathizers or his-bull-thugs and its sympathizers etc. But 'palestinians', I'm not sure what and who that may be. I'm okay with "so-called 'palestinians' ". Nonetheless what are The We supposed to DO? If ya ask me and certainly I am not imagining anyone anywhere asking me "what are The We supposed to DO"? Nonetheless #2 - I think/imagine/dream that M.M. Schneerson who was an uber schmardt fellow who was well educated in Science and Mathematics etc... he suggested a la The Sound of Music ... "Let's start at the very beginning..." a) pick one or more of his suggested "10 Mitzvot" and stick with that or those. For quite some time. b) he suggested "Living with the Times" i.e. Jewish persons and the Jewish People would benefit (possibly in the VERY near future) by 'living with the Times' as in daily, chronological readings and MINIMAL study of the Torah's parasha/parashot. For quite some time. The Trapp Family or the librettist of the Musical gave the wisdom of "... start at the very beginning... because that's a very good place to start". THAT could possibly cause some serious positive repercussions to begin some positive ripple effects. Inside The Us and outside. It is now our Now What Time. Our choice. Individually and collectively. But without us say sampling what one of our Elders has suggested so simply we are doomed to keep facing all sorts of venomous numbnuts for some strange foreseeable long time - without DOING anything in our own capacities as Jewish persons.