I agree with what you’ve said about Western leaders with big egos, it sounds like an almost impossible situation to deal with. Neither Israel or Palestine seems to trust western governments. At the end of the day compromises will have to be made. If they cannot compromise on anything, nothing will change and hostilities will continue. I wouldn’t know what to try that hasn’t already been tried. Again another interesting read.
Josh, you speak uncomfortable truths. Your ability to see through platitudes and recognize previously unaddressed issues could be a key to some sort of arrangement, if only those in positions of impact will agree to leave their “ego” aside and challenge their thinking. Unfortunately the ability to do so seemed to be sorely lacking.
Josh, you repeatedly reject any possibility of a two-state solution. In that case, what is your proposal for an alternative to the repeated cycles of lull and violence? These cycles are not static--they are highly likely to increase in both frequency and amplitude, as Iran continues to build its proxy forces in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere. At some point, there is a fair probability that Israel will not win.
Hi Ron, I don’t reject a two-state solution. Reality rejects it. I am just conveying this harsh reality.
My “proposal” as I wrote is: There are only responses and policies (e.g. deterrence, defunding) which seem slightly more, or slightly less, likely to reduce suffering and keep each party at a safe distance.
Josh, you wrote: "In 1948, Israel declared its independence, five Arab countries attacked the new Jewish state just hours later, and the first Israeli-Arab War broke out, or what the Palestinians call the “Nakba” (“catastrophe” in Arabic) since some 700,000 Palestinians became refugees." QUESTIONS: What exactly were the "Palestinians" when this happened? Arabs? Where were they living? How did they become refugees if the new Israeli state didn't order them to go? I'm confused by the different versions I read/hear about the origins of all this.
Many of these 700,000 Palestinians were living in Arab villages and cities in what is today Israel when the war break out. The misnomer is that Israel forced all of them to leave their homes when the war started, but the truth is that there are a few reasons why they left, including that Arab media and Arab leaders of these Arab countries encouraged them to leave their homes so they could attack Israel, and then they could return to their homes after the Jews were defeated, but the Jews weren’t defeated. Multiple people have corroborated this fact, including current Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas.
Josh, I've read many sources on this issue. Historians seem to agree only that the Arab leaders' exhortations were prominent only, or mostly, in Haifa. There is plenty of documentary evidence that Israeli forces expelled and/or frightened away many of the Arabs, and also prevented them from returning to their homes when some of them tried. This is not necessarily deserving of condemnation--the salient fact is that 5 Arab countries invaded within hours of Israel declaring its independence, promising to slaughter the Jews. This was a war that was inflicted on Israel. Many of the Arab towns served as bases for military operations and as such were legitimate military targets. Why should we run away from this? Almost 500,000 Arabs remained in Israel even after the war, and today there are 2 million Arab Israelis.
There's also the fact that an almost equivalent number of Jews (600,000-70o,000) were expelled from Arab countries, in what looked far more like ethnic cleansing than the so-called "nakba;" only a few hundred Jews in total remained among all those countries, and those countries were not being attacked by Israel. Most of the Jews refugees were assimilated into Israel. Not so the Arab refugees by Arab lands.
I agree with what you’ve said about Western leaders with big egos, it sounds like an almost impossible situation to deal with. Neither Israel or Palestine seems to trust western governments. At the end of the day compromises will have to be made. If they cannot compromise on anything, nothing will change and hostilities will continue. I wouldn’t know what to try that hasn’t already been tried. Again another interesting read.
Agreed on the compromises!
How very wise you are!
Josh, you speak uncomfortable truths. Your ability to see through platitudes and recognize previously unaddressed issues could be a key to some sort of arrangement, if only those in positions of impact will agree to leave their “ego” aside and challenge their thinking. Unfortunately the ability to do so seemed to be sorely lacking.
Josh, you repeatedly reject any possibility of a two-state solution. In that case, what is your proposal for an alternative to the repeated cycles of lull and violence? These cycles are not static--they are highly likely to increase in both frequency and amplitude, as Iran continues to build its proxy forces in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere. At some point, there is a fair probability that Israel will not win.
Hi Ron, I don’t reject a two-state solution. Reality rejects it. I am just conveying this harsh reality.
My “proposal” as I wrote is: There are only responses and policies (e.g. deterrence, defunding) which seem slightly more, or slightly less, likely to reduce suffering and keep each party at a safe distance.
And nobody discusses the approximate 900,000 Jews that left voluntarily or were forced to leave their homes in other Arab countries from 1947 forward.
That’s right!
Josh, you wrote: "In 1948, Israel declared its independence, five Arab countries attacked the new Jewish state just hours later, and the first Israeli-Arab War broke out, or what the Palestinians call the “Nakba” (“catastrophe” in Arabic) since some 700,000 Palestinians became refugees." QUESTIONS: What exactly were the "Palestinians" when this happened? Arabs? Where were they living? How did they become refugees if the new Israeli state didn't order them to go? I'm confused by the different versions I read/hear about the origins of all this.
Many of these 700,000 Palestinians were living in Arab villages and cities in what is today Israel when the war break out. The misnomer is that Israel forced all of them to leave their homes when the war started, but the truth is that there are a few reasons why they left, including that Arab media and Arab leaders of these Arab countries encouraged them to leave their homes so they could attack Israel, and then they could return to their homes after the Jews were defeated, but the Jews weren’t defeated. Multiple people have corroborated this fact, including current Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas.
Josh, I've read many sources on this issue. Historians seem to agree only that the Arab leaders' exhortations were prominent only, or mostly, in Haifa. There is plenty of documentary evidence that Israeli forces expelled and/or frightened away many of the Arabs, and also prevented them from returning to their homes when some of them tried. This is not necessarily deserving of condemnation--the salient fact is that 5 Arab countries invaded within hours of Israel declaring its independence, promising to slaughter the Jews. This was a war that was inflicted on Israel. Many of the Arab towns served as bases for military operations and as such were legitimate military targets. Why should we run away from this? Almost 500,000 Arabs remained in Israel even after the war, and today there are 2 million Arab Israelis.
There's also the fact that an almost equivalent number of Jews (600,000-70o,000) were expelled from Arab countries, in what looked far more like ethnic cleansing than the so-called "nakba;" only a few hundred Jews in total remained among all those countries, and those countries were not being attacked by Israel. Most of the Jews refugees were assimilated into Israel. Not so the Arab refugees by Arab lands.