"The resettlement of Gaza and the voluntary transfer of its residents abroad would never be accepted by any member of the international community; a belief to the contrary is simply self-delusion. Should Israel insist upon this policy — a policy, not incidentally, which is deeply unpopular within Israel itself — Israel would completely undermine its international standing and credibility." What a timing to steer the pot. Yikes. Having a hard time to sound intelligent to something that lacks thoughtfulness and forethought. Yikes again.
I'm intrigued to educate myself more about the differing views within the Jewish community. As an outsider, a gentile, I can only speak to my reaction to the research I've done and the images I've seen. My personal conclusions thus far are quite simple. However this conflict emerged, whatever the positions extremists on both sides take (and they are murderously extreme) the body count makes no sense. Killing 25,000 Palestinians, in an act of revenge to further an expansionist agenda does not seem reasonable or proportionate. I don't think any g-d would expect such blood sacrifice. Of course, this is my view but I know it is one I share with many observers.
Hi Mark - thank you for writing and for your honest feedback.
I disagree with your conclusion, as it seems to be based on two false assumptions: First, that Israel is engaged in an act of revenge, and second, that it serves an expansionist agenda.
The war we are engaged in now - a war in which my immediately family has been involved - has nothing to do with revenge. It has everything to do with attempting to end Hamas's rule over Gaza, and preferably its existence. Hamas, like ISIS and al Qaeda, openly advocates a worldwide caliphate where Muslim law would be the law of the land; more to the point for Israel, Hamas also advocates the genocide of the Jewish people. The head of Hamas openly has said that October 7th will be repeated again and again, and Hamas has declared that it seeks the death of every Jewish person on the planet. Israel's goal is all about removing this threat so that it will not and cannot happen again. That is why I fully support Israel's war against Hamas - and I would not if it were a matter of revenge.
On the same point, the killing of 25,000 Gazans (or whatever the number is - we rely on Hamas for these figures) includes thousands and thousands of Hamas fighters who are actively fighting against Israel; lamenting their deaths is no different from lamenting the high number of German soldiers who were killed in World War II: lamentable as a human tragedy, but inevitable as part of warfare. Moreover, Hamas openly brags about embedding its fighters and materiel in civilian infrastructure, and has made it difficult for those civilians to leave even when Israel insists that they do. Israel does everything in its power to avoid civilian casualties, as it is both a moral imperative Israel adheres to, as well as a mistake in terms of international reaction. When Hamas shoots rockets from hospitals and schools and Israel needs to eliminate those threats, the blame belongs exclusively - exclusively - with Hamas, not Israel, which has no desire to attack anything but military targets.
Regarding your second point, this has nothing to do with an expansionist agenda. Yes, there are people in the Israeli government and public who advocate Jewish settlement in Gaza (which has ample historical precedent for the record - Jews lived in Gaza for centuries) but the vast majority of Israelis, along with the vast majority of the Knesset and the entirety of the current war cabinet, has said that there is absolutely no possibility of renewed Jewish settlement in Gaza. This was is about removing a threat - the same threat which invaded the sovereign borders of the State of Israel on October 7th and murdered 1200 people and kidnapped another 230. When the threat is removed, there will be no more Israeli presence in Gaza. Period. Everyone in Israel knows that this is the case. Claiming that Israel has expansionist aims is simply incorrect.
Thank you again for expressing your viewpoint, and I hope that this sheds some light on what we in Israel know to be the reality.
Hi. Thank you for such a thorough reply. I'm listening and learning. I completely agree about the need to deal with Hamas. Their likeness to ISIS and other medieval death cults is a serious existential issue for sure. My heart breaks for the innocents caught up in this tragedy. Of course, my view is formed very much from a Eurocentric perspective. The complexities of the issues faced by Israel and Middle East generally are beyond simple analysis. I've absorbed what you've recounted and, taken at face value, I see where you're coming from. I guess, the sadness is, beyond war, I struggle to see where we're all going. I feel enlightened by you response and am glad we can have an open and honest exchange of views.
In their viewpoint? That's what it seems to me, yes. I feel that there is a very unfortunate tendency in the RZ world to, at times, assume that G-d will have "no choice" but to help us. It's a viewpoint that is dangerous and theologically absurd.
I agree. I've only ever heard that G-d reveals Himself to the humble, not as in materially poor but as in egoless. Being presumptuous is not exactly humble. Yet at the same time, fighting for survival requires a strong ego. Maybe it's a kind of self-defense mechanism for when you don't know what else to do, like wishful thinking.
"The resettlement of Gaza and the voluntary transfer of its residents abroad would never be accepted by any member of the international community; a belief to the contrary is simply self-delusion. Should Israel insist upon this policy — a policy, not incidentally, which is deeply unpopular within Israel itself — Israel would completely undermine its international standing and credibility." What a timing to steer the pot. Yikes. Having a hard time to sound intelligent to something that lacks thoughtfulness and forethought. Yikes again.
I'm intrigued to educate myself more about the differing views within the Jewish community. As an outsider, a gentile, I can only speak to my reaction to the research I've done and the images I've seen. My personal conclusions thus far are quite simple. However this conflict emerged, whatever the positions extremists on both sides take (and they are murderously extreme) the body count makes no sense. Killing 25,000 Palestinians, in an act of revenge to further an expansionist agenda does not seem reasonable or proportionate. I don't think any g-d would expect such blood sacrifice. Of course, this is my view but I know it is one I share with many observers.
Hi Mark - thank you for writing and for your honest feedback.
I disagree with your conclusion, as it seems to be based on two false assumptions: First, that Israel is engaged in an act of revenge, and second, that it serves an expansionist agenda.
The war we are engaged in now - a war in which my immediately family has been involved - has nothing to do with revenge. It has everything to do with attempting to end Hamas's rule over Gaza, and preferably its existence. Hamas, like ISIS and al Qaeda, openly advocates a worldwide caliphate where Muslim law would be the law of the land; more to the point for Israel, Hamas also advocates the genocide of the Jewish people. The head of Hamas openly has said that October 7th will be repeated again and again, and Hamas has declared that it seeks the death of every Jewish person on the planet. Israel's goal is all about removing this threat so that it will not and cannot happen again. That is why I fully support Israel's war against Hamas - and I would not if it were a matter of revenge.
On the same point, the killing of 25,000 Gazans (or whatever the number is - we rely on Hamas for these figures) includes thousands and thousands of Hamas fighters who are actively fighting against Israel; lamenting their deaths is no different from lamenting the high number of German soldiers who were killed in World War II: lamentable as a human tragedy, but inevitable as part of warfare. Moreover, Hamas openly brags about embedding its fighters and materiel in civilian infrastructure, and has made it difficult for those civilians to leave even when Israel insists that they do. Israel does everything in its power to avoid civilian casualties, as it is both a moral imperative Israel adheres to, as well as a mistake in terms of international reaction. When Hamas shoots rockets from hospitals and schools and Israel needs to eliminate those threats, the blame belongs exclusively - exclusively - with Hamas, not Israel, which has no desire to attack anything but military targets.
Regarding your second point, this has nothing to do with an expansionist agenda. Yes, there are people in the Israeli government and public who advocate Jewish settlement in Gaza (which has ample historical precedent for the record - Jews lived in Gaza for centuries) but the vast majority of Israelis, along with the vast majority of the Knesset and the entirety of the current war cabinet, has said that there is absolutely no possibility of renewed Jewish settlement in Gaza. This was is about removing a threat - the same threat which invaded the sovereign borders of the State of Israel on October 7th and murdered 1200 people and kidnapped another 230. When the threat is removed, there will be no more Israeli presence in Gaza. Period. Everyone in Israel knows that this is the case. Claiming that Israel has expansionist aims is simply incorrect.
Thank you again for expressing your viewpoint, and I hope that this sheds some light on what we in Israel know to be the reality.
Hi. Thank you for such a thorough reply. I'm listening and learning. I completely agree about the need to deal with Hamas. Their likeness to ISIS and other medieval death cults is a serious existential issue for sure. My heart breaks for the innocents caught up in this tragedy. Of course, my view is formed very much from a Eurocentric perspective. The complexities of the issues faced by Israel and Middle East generally are beyond simple analysis. I've absorbed what you've recounted and, taken at face value, I see where you're coming from. I guess, the sadness is, beyond war, I struggle to see where we're all going. I feel enlightened by you response and am glad we can have an open and honest exchange of views.
So basically G-d is supposed to surrender to their will rather than the other way around.
In their viewpoint? That's what it seems to me, yes. I feel that there is a very unfortunate tendency in the RZ world to, at times, assume that G-d will have "no choice" but to help us. It's a viewpoint that is dangerous and theologically absurd.
I agree. I've only ever heard that G-d reveals Himself to the humble, not as in materially poor but as in egoless. Being presumptuous is not exactly humble. Yet at the same time, fighting for survival requires a strong ego. Maybe it's a kind of self-defense mechanism for when you don't know what else to do, like wishful thinking.
Very wise words. I agree
Well thought out. And said with admirable respect. Shabbat ahalom