The whole of The Middle East has been in CONTINUOUS turmoil and at War with itself for the whole of the the last 10,000 years. Go to the British Museum Antiquities (Middle East) section on the first floor and take a look at Assyria 8,000 BCE. Scholars record The Arab's War there which killed by Genocide one third of the people who lived there. The place is a WC. This is well before The Jewish People and the giving of The Torah.
Well said Daniel. The same people who constantly complain about British colonialism ignore the facts and continue to interfere and hope for a one world solution.
Thank you Steve. I have said this before, and I will say again, the European, and Russian and American Empires which white people took abroad did very much more good than harm. The reason is that these Empires' Enlightenment and their Modernity, with their Education and their Science, became the modern aspirations and high standards which All the races of the World now demand of their leaders.
Not sure about the Russian Empire, but I get your point. As has been said recently, history has been hard on everyone. But in the end, Enlightenment values are "where it's at." This is where everyone wants to be, and this is why the Islamists want to destroy.
It is not as if The Enlightenment is the Cultural Property of the Empires which held them. The roots of Rationalism, The Axiomatic Method, and The Scientific Method go as far back as Plato, Socrates and Aristotle, over 2700 years ago. Judaism was exposed to these ideas too at this time, and it is no accident that the clever merchants of The Middle East ( the Phoenicians of Lebanon, who gave us the West's written Alphabet and our script ), at this time were right next door to Southern Europe of Greece and Italy. So there is no need for the Islamists to feel inferior, which is the real and ACTUAL reason Islam is anti-Western. The Middle East Region's merchants of Persia and Arabia also carried this Intellect through the Middle East and beyond too.
Absolutely. And you know more than I do but I am aware of the golden age of Islam — yes they were imperialists, no different than any of the western countries -/ but they were great with math medicine philosophy- that’s my understanding. What the hell happened to them?
It’s so much easier for the US to bully, pressure, and castigate Israel - as it is doing now - than admit the Palestinians don’t want a two state solution, remain unwilling to accept the existence of Israel, support terror & are incapable of self-governance. This is also the reason the Palestinians are never held responsible for their actions and decisions. For the US to acknowledge all of this is an admission its approach to the Israel-Palestinian conflict has been wrong for almost 60 years.
What is left out of the conversation is Gaza, which was once occupied by Jewish settlers until Israel made the unprecedented decision to withdraw its citizens, hoping for peace and prosperity under Arab control.
However, this dream quickly turned into a nightmare as Gazans chose to use their resources for stockpiling weapons and building tunnels of destruction. Israel had no choice but to implement a blockade to prevent further bloodshed and protect its citizens from constant threats.
But instead of admitting fault, the Gazans cry out against being trapped in an "open-air prison," painting themselves as victims when it was Hamas who lit the match that ignited this conflict. The restrictions imposed by the Israeli Defense Forces were necessary survival tactics, not acts of aggression, and anyone who says otherwise is blind to the truth of this ongoing war.
It's laughable that Yeminis are slaughtering each other by the hundreds of thousands, yet there they were marching for "palestine". We're supposed to actually believe they care about lives in Gaza when they have zero regard for the lives of their own countrymen. This whole "palestinian" movement is blatantly driven by Jew-hatred pure and simple. If Israel were to God forbid disappear, how quickly would "palestinians" be slaughtering each other? But let's blame the Middle East turmoil on the only outpost of enlightenment western civilization in the Middle East.
Critics of the IDF's campaign in Gaza are blinded by their own naivety and misguided beliefs. Hamas cannot be reasoned with or defeated through peaceful means; their toxic ideology is rooted deep in their core. The destruction in Gaza only serves to radicalize them further, making them an even greater threat to Israel.
Their ability to act on their violent inclinations is what makes them so dangerous, gaining them political power and control. Any hope for coexistence between Palestinian and Israeli societies must be abandoned, as it will take a generation even to begin to repair the damage caused by Hamas' relentless use of force and violence. Hamas will continue to shape the political reality as long as they possess the means to do so.
Their military capabilities must be stripped away through unrelenting force to truly defeat them. Only then can peace and stability have a chance at being achieved in this war-torn region.
Another outstanding piece by Michael Oren. The West is primarily responsible for deepening the wound of Jew hatred with their irresponsible and illogical vacuous words to the world. The US loves to talk about the two-state solution, but complains about the problem of the "settlements." If they believe the settlements are a cause for friction, then how could they expect a two-state solution to work? It must make them feel good inside to talk about the two-state solution, but all that says is, "they have no solution," and other countries parrot them.
"If they believe the settlements are a cause for friction, then how would they expect a two-state solution to work?"
Most two-state solution proponents (with the exception of the "two-states, one land" camp) believe in dismantling the settlements like Israel did in Gaza and forcing Judea/Samaria (including East Jerusalem and Hebron) to become Judenrein. They may not be conscious of this belief (I certainly wasn't for most of my life), but it is a logical consequence of most two-state solution forms.
and in Gaza it obviously still wasn't enough and it never will be enough because they want the eradication of all Jews, period. There's no compromise with them as the multiple "solutions" proved over the years when they were turned down one after the other.
None of this is an accident. The timing, the U.S. posturing, the demonstrations, the media. Sorry to say, but I think America knew about this ahead of time and did nothing. It’s said that it’s better to ask for forgiveness than permission. That should be the approach with respect to finishing this war. Israel won’t get credit no matter what it does, and shouldn’t have to ask for either dispensation, but Israel will be rid of Hamas. Finish it.
Absolutely. And the only way to end war is to win it. And often, ruthless measures must be taken and "innocent" people will die, but in the end you save more lives. So ..... Another recent comment to this blog talked about how the Allies bombed a bunch of places in France (also Allies!), killing Frenchmen! in order to keep the Germans from interfering with the landing at Normandy. You do what you have to do. And Israel should do whatever it takes and not give a damn what anyone thinks. Because they will hate anyway. So just win it and be done. [There was a musical in the early 70s called To Live Another Summer, to Pass Another Winter. In it was a song called "WE'RE SORRY WE WON IT" usually performed with everyone wearing an eye-patch. ]
"For what is antisemitism but the insistence on saddling the Jews with the responsibility for all of society’s ills, plagues, and wars? Similarly, by regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict as the nub of all Middle Eastern violence, and the Jewish state as that conflict’s core, linkage is itself linked to the world’s oldest hatred." Brilliant. Sad and infuriating, but brilliant.
That was a quote from the blog you’re commenting on, commenting on historical anti-semitism, I believe, without re-reading just now. But: do you not see what’s happening on campuses here and throughout Europe? That is how it starts. It’s something to watch carefully. A parody of myself? That was nasty. Tsk tsk.
Respectfully, it doesn't matter who said what, when. At the time of the partition according to your stats, it was almost 50-50 population wise, and yes the partition of land was not equal but my understanding is that the Jews were to get more desert, so in that way it was fair. The one thing we do know is the Jews were willing to accept it; the Arabs not. It's also my understanding that the Oslo Accords were turned down by Arafat and he initiated an intifada instead. Again, no point in arguing. What is the solution? That indeed is the question. Hamas has to go. No question. Hopefully Israel will rid Gaza of them. I've heard the suggestion that a conglomerate of nations could run Gaza, including the U.S., Saudi Arabia and other nations with diplomatic ties to Israel, with Israel handling security. Clearly the population has to be re-educated. I don't pretend this is a perfect solution or that it would work at all, but Israel isn't going to go for two states, from everything I read. It's up to the Palestinians to make a change. They had prime real estate on the Mediterranean with billions of dollars streaming in from all over the world, and what did they do with it? Certainly not state building. What country would have them as a neighbor at this point? Jordan and Egypt refuse to take them in. We know why. Israel has the advantage right now, and I'm glad for it. That's just how I feel -- and I'm not going to change. I can be called out for ethnic cleansing, genocide and anything else the other side likes. I don't care. This is existential and I'm not willing to see the destruction of Israel and the Jews who live there so that I can be considered "nice." Tolerance is great, but I have no tolerance for the intolerant (and of course you'll disagree with my assessment, but there it is). These are my last words.
I am saying, what does it matter now? Dissect analyze argue - Israel is here right now and it is not going away. They keep attacking and they keep losing. I think Israel had dropped the ball but Oct 7 galvanized the country and Israel is stronger than ever, with diplomatic allies in 3-4 Arab countries. Every little bit helps. I do not support the exportation of radical Islamist and Sharia law. What they do in their country is their business. They are a danger to the West and Israel is the front line , although I worry about the Brits.
Okay: You're right, freedom of speech often means we will not like what we hear. However, there is a tendency on my part to want to correct, from my point of view of course. 1) Israel and the U.N. offered a Palestinian state in '47 and Israel offered it again multiple times. Each time the Palestinians turned it down. They were then given Gaza and what did they do with it? The truth is that Palestinians do not want a state. It is not about land. That is not really their endgame. IF they were to suddenly decide it was okay to have a state next to Israel, they would simply use it to commit more terrorism in Israel, with the endgame of eliminating Israel. Next step is the rest of the Western world (when people say something, believe them). 3) So at this point, they have relinquished ay "rights" to a state - from Israel's point of view. Fair or not, that is how it is. To the victor go the spoils. That is not genocide. The Palestinian population has quadrupled since '47. 4) People have a right to hire or not hire whom they please. You may have a right to say things, but there could be consequences. It goes with the territory and deciding when and how to take a stand is an adult decision.
Nevertheless, two states is the only practical solution, however hard that might be to achieve, and the opportunity for that must always be held open, for whenever the Palestinian arabs can get their act together and stop trying to resolve their beefs with Israel through violence. Regardless of whatever the arabs might have done, there is no excuse for the West Bank settlements, allowing far-right extremists to run the Israeli government, or the excessively harsh treatment of arabs under military rule in the West Bank.
David - you are delusional. From the river to the sea should be Israeli - end or problem. Let the +470 million Arabs in various countries long ago conquered by Islamist genocidal murderers absorb the arabs in non existent Palestine, who are otherwise going to be perpetual and violent trouble makers.
The whole of The Middle East has been in CONTINUOUS turmoil and at War with itself for the whole of the the last 10,000 years. Go to the British Museum Antiquities (Middle East) section on the first floor and take a look at Assyria 8,000 BCE. Scholars record The Arab's War there which killed by Genocide one third of the people who lived there. The place is a WC. This is well before The Jewish People and the giving of The Torah.
Well said Daniel. The same people who constantly complain about British colonialism ignore the facts and continue to interfere and hope for a one world solution.
Thank you Steve. I have said this before, and I will say again, the European, and Russian and American Empires which white people took abroad did very much more good than harm. The reason is that these Empires' Enlightenment and their Modernity, with their Education and their Science, became the modern aspirations and high standards which All the races of the World now demand of their leaders.
Not sure about the Russian Empire, but I get your point. As has been said recently, history has been hard on everyone. But in the end, Enlightenment values are "where it's at." This is where everyone wants to be, and this is why the Islamists want to destroy.
It is not as if The Enlightenment is the Cultural Property of the Empires which held them. The roots of Rationalism, The Axiomatic Method, and The Scientific Method go as far back as Plato, Socrates and Aristotle, over 2700 years ago. Judaism was exposed to these ideas too at this time, and it is no accident that the clever merchants of The Middle East ( the Phoenicians of Lebanon, who gave us the West's written Alphabet and our script ), at this time were right next door to Southern Europe of Greece and Italy. So there is no need for the Islamists to feel inferior, which is the real and ACTUAL reason Islam is anti-Western. The Middle East Region's merchants of Persia and Arabia also carried this Intellect through the Middle East and beyond too.
Absolutely. And you know more than I do but I am aware of the golden age of Islam — yes they were imperialists, no different than any of the western countries -/ but they were great with math medicine philosophy- that’s my understanding. What the hell happened to them?
It’s so much easier for the US to bully, pressure, and castigate Israel - as it is doing now - than admit the Palestinians don’t want a two state solution, remain unwilling to accept the existence of Israel, support terror & are incapable of self-governance. This is also the reason the Palestinians are never held responsible for their actions and decisions. For the US to acknowledge all of this is an admission its approach to the Israel-Palestinian conflict has been wrong for almost 60 years.
What is left out of the conversation is Gaza, which was once occupied by Jewish settlers until Israel made the unprecedented decision to withdraw its citizens, hoping for peace and prosperity under Arab control.
However, this dream quickly turned into a nightmare as Gazans chose to use their resources for stockpiling weapons and building tunnels of destruction. Israel had no choice but to implement a blockade to prevent further bloodshed and protect its citizens from constant threats.
But instead of admitting fault, the Gazans cry out against being trapped in an "open-air prison," painting themselves as victims when it was Hamas who lit the match that ignited this conflict. The restrictions imposed by the Israeli Defense Forces were necessary survival tactics, not acts of aggression, and anyone who says otherwise is blind to the truth of this ongoing war.
Absolutely! 100% true.
It's laughable that Yeminis are slaughtering each other by the hundreds of thousands, yet there they were marching for "palestine". We're supposed to actually believe they care about lives in Gaza when they have zero regard for the lives of their own countrymen. This whole "palestinian" movement is blatantly driven by Jew-hatred pure and simple. If Israel were to God forbid disappear, how quickly would "palestinians" be slaughtering each other? But let's blame the Middle East turmoil on the only outpost of enlightenment western civilization in the Middle East.
Yes that IS the larger issue. Absolutely. And I'm all in favor of defaming any one who Perpetrates this ridiculous bullish*t.
Critics of the IDF's campaign in Gaza are blinded by their own naivety and misguided beliefs. Hamas cannot be reasoned with or defeated through peaceful means; their toxic ideology is rooted deep in their core. The destruction in Gaza only serves to radicalize them further, making them an even greater threat to Israel.
Their ability to act on their violent inclinations is what makes them so dangerous, gaining them political power and control. Any hope for coexistence between Palestinian and Israeli societies must be abandoned, as it will take a generation even to begin to repair the damage caused by Hamas' relentless use of force and violence. Hamas will continue to shape the political reality as long as they possess the means to do so.
Their military capabilities must be stripped away through unrelenting force to truly defeat them. Only then can peace and stability have a chance at being achieved in this war-torn region.
Would pro ably take a few generations, not just one, of intensive re-education. The destruction in Gaza radicalizes them and is perpetrating BY Hamas!
Agree.
Another outstanding piece by Michael Oren. The West is primarily responsible for deepening the wound of Jew hatred with their irresponsible and illogical vacuous words to the world. The US loves to talk about the two-state solution, but complains about the problem of the "settlements." If they believe the settlements are a cause for friction, then how could they expect a two-state solution to work? It must make them feel good inside to talk about the two-state solution, but all that says is, "they have no solution," and other countries parrot them.
"If they believe the settlements are a cause for friction, then how would they expect a two-state solution to work?"
Most two-state solution proponents (with the exception of the "two-states, one land" camp) believe in dismantling the settlements like Israel did in Gaza and forcing Judea/Samaria (including East Jerusalem and Hebron) to become Judenrein. They may not be conscious of this belief (I certainly wasn't for most of my life), but it is a logical consequence of most two-state solution forms.
and in Gaza it obviously still wasn't enough and it never will be enough because they want the eradication of all Jews, period. There's no compromise with them as the multiple "solutions" proved over the years when they were turned down one after the other.
An outstanding piece.
None of this is an accident. The timing, the U.S. posturing, the demonstrations, the media. Sorry to say, but I think America knew about this ahead of time and did nothing. It’s said that it’s better to ask for forgiveness than permission. That should be the approach with respect to finishing this war. Israel won’t get credit no matter what it does, and shouldn’t have to ask for either dispensation, but Israel will be rid of Hamas. Finish it.
Absolutely. And the only way to end war is to win it. And often, ruthless measures must be taken and "innocent" people will die, but in the end you save more lives. So ..... Another recent comment to this blog talked about how the Allies bombed a bunch of places in France (also Allies!), killing Frenchmen! in order to keep the Germans from interfering with the landing at Normandy. You do what you have to do. And Israel should do whatever it takes and not give a damn what anyone thinks. Because they will hate anyway. So just win it and be done. [There was a musical in the early 70s called To Live Another Summer, to Pass Another Winter. In it was a song called "WE'RE SORRY WE WON IT" usually performed with everyone wearing an eye-patch. ]
Excellent piece, a 'two state solution' is becoming a mantra with usually smart politicans.
Nevertheless, I should like Michael Oren to elaborate on "through federal or expanded autonomy solutions".
"For what is antisemitism but the insistence on saddling the Jews with the responsibility for all of society’s ills, plagues, and wars? Similarly, by regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict as the nub of all Middle Eastern violence, and the Jewish state as that conflict’s core, linkage is itself linked to the world’s oldest hatred." Brilliant. Sad and infuriating, but brilliant.
That was a quote from the blog you’re commenting on, commenting on historical anti-semitism, I believe, without re-reading just now. But: do you not see what’s happening on campuses here and throughout Europe? That is how it starts. It’s something to watch carefully. A parody of myself? That was nasty. Tsk tsk.
Respectfully, it doesn't matter who said what, when. At the time of the partition according to your stats, it was almost 50-50 population wise, and yes the partition of land was not equal but my understanding is that the Jews were to get more desert, so in that way it was fair. The one thing we do know is the Jews were willing to accept it; the Arabs not. It's also my understanding that the Oslo Accords were turned down by Arafat and he initiated an intifada instead. Again, no point in arguing. What is the solution? That indeed is the question. Hamas has to go. No question. Hopefully Israel will rid Gaza of them. I've heard the suggestion that a conglomerate of nations could run Gaza, including the U.S., Saudi Arabia and other nations with diplomatic ties to Israel, with Israel handling security. Clearly the population has to be re-educated. I don't pretend this is a perfect solution or that it would work at all, but Israel isn't going to go for two states, from everything I read. It's up to the Palestinians to make a change. They had prime real estate on the Mediterranean with billions of dollars streaming in from all over the world, and what did they do with it? Certainly not state building. What country would have them as a neighbor at this point? Jordan and Egypt refuse to take them in. We know why. Israel has the advantage right now, and I'm glad for it. That's just how I feel -- and I'm not going to change. I can be called out for ethnic cleansing, genocide and anything else the other side likes. I don't care. This is existential and I'm not willing to see the destruction of Israel and the Jews who live there so that I can be considered "nice." Tolerance is great, but I have no tolerance for the intolerant (and of course you'll disagree with my assessment, but there it is). These are my last words.
I am saying, what does it matter now? Dissect analyze argue - Israel is here right now and it is not going away. They keep attacking and they keep losing. I think Israel had dropped the ball but Oct 7 galvanized the country and Israel is stronger than ever, with diplomatic allies in 3-4 Arab countries. Every little bit helps. I do not support the exportation of radical Islamist and Sharia law. What they do in their country is their business. They are a danger to the West and Israel is the front line , although I worry about the Brits.
Okay: You're right, freedom of speech often means we will not like what we hear. However, there is a tendency on my part to want to correct, from my point of view of course. 1) Israel and the U.N. offered a Palestinian state in '47 and Israel offered it again multiple times. Each time the Palestinians turned it down. They were then given Gaza and what did they do with it? The truth is that Palestinians do not want a state. It is not about land. That is not really their endgame. IF they were to suddenly decide it was okay to have a state next to Israel, they would simply use it to commit more terrorism in Israel, with the endgame of eliminating Israel. Next step is the rest of the Western world (when people say something, believe them). 3) So at this point, they have relinquished ay "rights" to a state - from Israel's point of view. Fair or not, that is how it is. To the victor go the spoils. That is not genocide. The Palestinian population has quadrupled since '47. 4) People have a right to hire or not hire whom they please. You may have a right to say things, but there could be consequences. It goes with the territory and deciding when and how to take a stand is an adult decision.
I appreciate the response and will answer soon. Busy right now!
Of course these idiots wouldn’t want ISIS community across the street from them.
Uncommonly good post.
Nevertheless, two states is the only practical solution, however hard that might be to achieve, and the opportunity for that must always be held open, for whenever the Palestinian arabs can get their act together and stop trying to resolve their beefs with Israel through violence. Regardless of whatever the arabs might have done, there is no excuse for the West Bank settlements, allowing far-right extremists to run the Israeli government, or the excessively harsh treatment of arabs under military rule in the West Bank.
David - you are delusional. From the river to the sea should be Israeli - end or problem. Let the +470 million Arabs in various countries long ago conquered by Islamist genocidal murderers absorb the arabs in non existent Palestine, who are otherwise going to be perpetual and violent trouble makers.
It is you who are delusional and are no friend of Israel.