What a fascinating and revealing piece! I do tend to agree with Ahmed when he says Palestinians would not be able to run their Country. They have one objective and would cut off their nose to spite their face!
Ahmed’s assertion that Jordon should be the rightful government for the West Bank (again) is a very interesting take. His assertion that the Palestinians themselves do not have the ability or inclination to govern themselves is enlightening and we have witnessed this for the last 50 years. However, let’s not forget that the Palestinians rose up against the Jordanian government in September, 1970 to overtake their Hashemite government/kingdom. This flies in the face of those Palestinians who think that they would be satisfied with their own country.
Arafat had several opportunities to gain Palestinian statehood. Each time after acceptance, he went back on his word. He would have rather continue having his people in “victimhood” and “resistance” than to accept the fact that Israel is permanent.
Further, as an experiment in self government, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 (under protest by the settlers) as an “experiment” in self government and self determination. We have seen the results of that failed experiment come to fruition 10/7.
10/7 pretty much killed any idea of a “2 state solution”.
We now need to think “outside the box” and, love it or hate him, DJT shifted the paradigm with his “outlandish” proposal of ridding Gaza of Gazans and starting over.
In 1984 I lived in Kibbutz Ramat Rachel, and worked in the diningroom/kitchen. There was a Palestinian cook, who loved in a village close by. We talked a lot, and he said: "we have never lived so well as now. My kids are studying, my daughter wants to be a doctor. My wife and I work and we live well. If we become an independent state, we'll fail. "Our leaders" are corrupt and will only fight against each other." His words are always ringing in my ears...
Exactly! wherever Palestinians go, disaster follows! I see them as criminal gangs, left over of illegal Arab invaders of Jewish territories! And with the Arabs having soo much land already, they don't need to claim Israeli territories!
It is a blasphemous abomination that on the Jewish people’s holiest land, the land that G-d designated for the Jewish people and instructed them to build their temple that there allows to exist a monument to Islamic supremacy under control of a foreign enemy blasphemous ideology. It should have been blown-up in 1967 when the Jews recaptured what was their ordained right. Historically, land taken in war, especially in war declared by the losing side belongs to the victor; it is and should be no different here. As for the Arabs that were on the land their side lost, they all should have been marched to the border of their respective countries, Jordan for Judea and Samaria and Egypt for Gaza and relocated accordingly or shot if they refused to march; no different than what the Arabs exiling of Jews in their lands in 1948. That land, all of Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria and Gaza was and is now again Jewish. There cannot be allowed to remain an enemy within; 77 years of that enemy within has led to the deaths of countless Jews. That Jews have allowed this condition to continue rather than assert their G-d given and nationalist rights is a disgrace and shame on the Jewish people that they care more about kowtowing to the Islamic enemy for the sake of temporary “political peace” than asserting and protecting their ordained heritage. There can be no peace with the followers of the false prophet and not because non-believers don’t desire peace but because Islam rejects any that does not submit to it. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Jewish self-determination to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither Jewish self-determination nor safety."
It’s fascinating to me that some people can so confidently assert that God not only exists but is on their side despite vast amounts of evidence against that assumption. You would think motivated reasoning would only take you so far but apparently not.
Ahmed is virulently anti-Israel and as such is on some level our enemy even if you like him personally. However Ahmed is a resident of Israel and so not forced to accept bizarre lies and untruth as fact for idelogical reasons. He understands that there can be no Palestinian state. That it would immediately be a failed state taken over by murderous Islamists and likely destroyed by Israel in a defensive war the "state" instigated. This makes him on some level an ally.
Yes, there are a million opinions on how things should be done or not. But the basic fact is that the status quo of debating these opinions cannot continue. Israel's very survival means it now has to make choices on what is best for the future security of Israel and the Jews, period. And that means taking back the land of the Jews for the Jews and no more negotiation about giving up land in hopes for "peace." Enough, already. I can see the moderate Arab states easily accepting this in the near future because they now see it will be ISRAEL saving them all from Iran and other terror groups, and protecting the entire Middle East going forward. And if Israel isn't secure, ain't nobody gonna be secure. A new Middle East is coming and thank heavens Trump is clear about this, too.
"Acknowledge that reality is complex and nuanced and that people are complicated"? And deny the foundation of their social and political existence? Ppfffttt! Good luck with that. On the other hand, as long as the enemy is actively trying to kill Jews, there is no nuance. There is no complexity. It is all very simple. Kill them first. Release all of the hostages; surrender; lay down your arms; and then we can talk about how we will all live together as brothers in our wonderful brave new world.
Good small narrative about the complexe genesis of the middle east conflict. And it also shows honestly why the arabs and the Arab League hold the essential responsibility in the present outcome of this conflict. Had they accepted the initial partition that gave Israel a tiny slice of land along the sea, in the middle of tens of millions of square kms of arab land , there would have been at least a possibility both sides could have started living side by side with benefits for both, essentially for the arabs. All the way, this was what Israel aspired to but to no avail. There would have been conflicts , oppositions, etc. Humans are what they are. But not six murderous wars killing so many young and less young people on both sides. Now hatred is on both sides.
But it is also true that the rest of the arab countries belonging to the Arab League would not have at their disposal to the same extent the convenient scapegoat of Israel being responsible for all their own failures.
Israel does not "occupy" Jerusalem, Judaism's holiest city with a 3500-year Jewish history. Nor are Israelis "occupiers" of Judea and Samaria. Your friend Ahmed is right that there should not be a 2-state solution, however these areas don't belong to Jordan either. They belong to Israel which should annex Judea and Samaria. Jordan actually has no right to exist. But it does, so there's your solution which has been there all along, the solution being the Arab occupiers of eastern Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria move to Jordan. While Israel controls the land from the river to the sea. Why should Israel give up any more of its already tiny land for either a 2-state final solution or to Jordan? Judea and Samaria is a large chunk to carve out of an already very small nation.
This article neglected to mention that while Jerusalem was divided its occupiers engaged in conduct that tried to erase any Jewish connection thereto and destroyed and desecrated Newish holy sites
Even in a binary, or black and white, world there are always shades of difference. Seldom is anything simple, and, often complexity overshadows simplicity. It is obvious that a two state solution will never work. When Israel gave Gaza to the Arabs, they destroyed everything Israel had left-- infrastructure, business, etc. When you have so much hatred for another group, there can never be peace. Being consumed with hate, Gaza could never be a viable state.
Do not be fooled . How many of the Gaza residents protesting against Hamas lifted a finger to help provide the location of a hostage ! Zero ! Ahmed clearly cannot come to grips with history and political and military realities any more than the Israeli left which still dreams of a Hebrew speaking Sweden and a two state solution both of which have been shown to be dreams wholly distorted from reality
As someone (Henry Kissinger?) once said, “The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” The Palestinians belong to and in Jordan. The problem is, of course, none of their Arab brethren want anything to do with them. There is and never has been a nation of Palestine. The sooner the world is rid of the terrorists among this population the better. And nothing will change this short of the end of the world. God apparently has a wicked sense of humor.
Henry Kissinger was way ahead of his time… in essence a left wing progressive (a Jew) who did much to sabotage Israel (Kissinger grumbled, “If it were not for the accident of my birth, I would be anti-Semitic.”
Very well written, and to me, seems both logical and truthful. However, the world loves a binary solution, and will often try to frame everything in binary terms. And I fear that the very egotistical and sociopathic personalities that often, not always, rise to power, foment simplistic narratives to their benefit.
Yes, people are complicated. If only solutions were not.
Some very good insights into the Palestinian mindset, but I have a couple of quibbles with some of your phrasing.
1. Until Arafat redefined it, the "nakhba" was understood to mean, not anything that Israel had done to the Arabs of Palestine, but rather the Arab humiliation that they had not been able to destroy the Jews, whom they had regarded as the weakest of all people. Arab Muslim pride had long been based on the military prowess that had led them to conquer a large portion of the globe.
2. There is no such place as "East Jerusalem." What Jordan controlled was the eastern portion of Jerusalem, most accurately referred to as "eastern Jerusalem." The idea that it is a separate place, rather than a portion of the whole, is propaganda.
What a fascinating and revealing piece! I do tend to agree with Ahmed when he says Palestinians would not be able to run their Country. They have one objective and would cut off their nose to spite their face!
Ahmed’s assertion that Jordon should be the rightful government for the West Bank (again) is a very interesting take. His assertion that the Palestinians themselves do not have the ability or inclination to govern themselves is enlightening and we have witnessed this for the last 50 years. However, let’s not forget that the Palestinians rose up against the Jordanian government in September, 1970 to overtake their Hashemite government/kingdom. This flies in the face of those Palestinians who think that they would be satisfied with their own country.
Arafat had several opportunities to gain Palestinian statehood. Each time after acceptance, he went back on his word. He would have rather continue having his people in “victimhood” and “resistance” than to accept the fact that Israel is permanent.
Further, as an experiment in self government, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 (under protest by the settlers) as an “experiment” in self government and self determination. We have seen the results of that failed experiment come to fruition 10/7.
10/7 pretty much killed any idea of a “2 state solution”.
We now need to think “outside the box” and, love it or hate him, DJT shifted the paradigm with his “outlandish” proposal of ridding Gaza of Gazans and starting over.
In 1984 I lived in Kibbutz Ramat Rachel, and worked in the diningroom/kitchen. There was a Palestinian cook, who loved in a village close by. We talked a lot, and he said: "we have never lived so well as now. My kids are studying, my daughter wants to be a doctor. My wife and I work and we live well. If we become an independent state, we'll fail. "Our leaders" are corrupt and will only fight against each other." His words are always ringing in my ears...
Exactly! wherever Palestinians go, disaster follows! I see them as criminal gangs, left over of illegal Arab invaders of Jewish territories! And with the Arabs having soo much land already, they don't need to claim Israeli territories!
It is a blasphemous abomination that on the Jewish people’s holiest land, the land that G-d designated for the Jewish people and instructed them to build their temple that there allows to exist a monument to Islamic supremacy under control of a foreign enemy blasphemous ideology. It should have been blown-up in 1967 when the Jews recaptured what was their ordained right. Historically, land taken in war, especially in war declared by the losing side belongs to the victor; it is and should be no different here. As for the Arabs that were on the land their side lost, they all should have been marched to the border of their respective countries, Jordan for Judea and Samaria and Egypt for Gaza and relocated accordingly or shot if they refused to march; no different than what the Arabs exiling of Jews in their lands in 1948. That land, all of Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria and Gaza was and is now again Jewish. There cannot be allowed to remain an enemy within; 77 years of that enemy within has led to the deaths of countless Jews. That Jews have allowed this condition to continue rather than assert their G-d given and nationalist rights is a disgrace and shame on the Jewish people that they care more about kowtowing to the Islamic enemy for the sake of temporary “political peace” than asserting and protecting their ordained heritage. There can be no peace with the followers of the false prophet and not because non-believers don’t desire peace but because Islam rejects any that does not submit to it. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Jewish self-determination to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither Jewish self-determination nor safety."
It’s fascinating to me that some people can so confidently assert that God not only exists but is on their side despite vast amounts of evidence against that assumption. You would think motivated reasoning would only take you so far but apparently not.
You’re missing something - when HaShem tells us to blast that Muzzie thing off the Temple Mount well we’ll know. Have a nice day.
Ahmed is virulently anti-Israel and as such is on some level our enemy even if you like him personally. However Ahmed is a resident of Israel and so not forced to accept bizarre lies and untruth as fact for idelogical reasons. He understands that there can be no Palestinian state. That it would immediately be a failed state taken over by murderous Islamists and likely destroyed by Israel in a defensive war the "state" instigated. This makes him on some level an ally.
Yes, there are a million opinions on how things should be done or not. But the basic fact is that the status quo of debating these opinions cannot continue. Israel's very survival means it now has to make choices on what is best for the future security of Israel and the Jews, period. And that means taking back the land of the Jews for the Jews and no more negotiation about giving up land in hopes for "peace." Enough, already. I can see the moderate Arab states easily accepting this in the near future because they now see it will be ISRAEL saving them all from Iran and other terror groups, and protecting the entire Middle East going forward. And if Israel isn't secure, ain't nobody gonna be secure. A new Middle East is coming and thank heavens Trump is clear about this, too.
"Acknowledge that reality is complex and nuanced and that people are complicated"? And deny the foundation of their social and political existence? Ppfffttt! Good luck with that. On the other hand, as long as the enemy is actively trying to kill Jews, there is no nuance. There is no complexity. It is all very simple. Kill them first. Release all of the hostages; surrender; lay down your arms; and then we can talk about how we will all live together as brothers in our wonderful brave new world.
Good small narrative about the complexe genesis of the middle east conflict. And it also shows honestly why the arabs and the Arab League hold the essential responsibility in the present outcome of this conflict. Had they accepted the initial partition that gave Israel a tiny slice of land along the sea, in the middle of tens of millions of square kms of arab land , there would have been at least a possibility both sides could have started living side by side with benefits for both, essentially for the arabs. All the way, this was what Israel aspired to but to no avail. There would have been conflicts , oppositions, etc. Humans are what they are. But not six murderous wars killing so many young and less young people on both sides. Now hatred is on both sides.
But it is also true that the rest of the arab countries belonging to the Arab League would not have at their disposal to the same extent the convenient scapegoat of Israel being responsible for all their own failures.
Israel does not "occupy" Jerusalem, Judaism's holiest city with a 3500-year Jewish history. Nor are Israelis "occupiers" of Judea and Samaria. Your friend Ahmed is right that there should not be a 2-state solution, however these areas don't belong to Jordan either. They belong to Israel which should annex Judea and Samaria. Jordan actually has no right to exist. But it does, so there's your solution which has been there all along, the solution being the Arab occupiers of eastern Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria move to Jordan. While Israel controls the land from the river to the sea. Why should Israel give up any more of its already tiny land for either a 2-state final solution or to Jordan? Judea and Samaria is a large chunk to carve out of an already very small nation.
Why would we give up Judea and Samaria? It’s the heart of Israel. The NAME alone tells you everything JUDEA.
This article neglected to mention that while Jerusalem was divided its occupiers engaged in conduct that tried to erase any Jewish connection thereto and destroyed and desecrated Newish holy sites
Even in a binary, or black and white, world there are always shades of difference. Seldom is anything simple, and, often complexity overshadows simplicity. It is obvious that a two state solution will never work. When Israel gave Gaza to the Arabs, they destroyed everything Israel had left-- infrastructure, business, etc. When you have so much hatred for another group, there can never be peace. Being consumed with hate, Gaza could never be a viable state.
Do not be fooled . How many of the Gaza residents protesting against Hamas lifted a finger to help provide the location of a hostage ! Zero ! Ahmed clearly cannot come to grips with history and political and military realities any more than the Israeli left which still dreams of a Hebrew speaking Sweden and a two state solution both of which have been shown to be dreams wholly distorted from reality
As someone (Henry Kissinger?) once said, “The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” The Palestinians belong to and in Jordan. The problem is, of course, none of their Arab brethren want anything to do with them. There is and never has been a nation of Palestine. The sooner the world is rid of the terrorists among this population the better. And nothing will change this short of the end of the world. God apparently has a wicked sense of humor.
Henry Kissinger was way ahead of his time… in essence a left wing progressive (a Jew) who did much to sabotage Israel (Kissinger grumbled, “If it were not for the accident of my birth, I would be anti-Semitic.”
What the chicken kisser missed was that he was antisemitic.
Very well written, and to me, seems both logical and truthful. However, the world loves a binary solution, and will often try to frame everything in binary terms. And I fear that the very egotistical and sociopathic personalities that often, not always, rise to power, foment simplistic narratives to their benefit.
Yes, people are complicated. If only solutions were not.
Some very good insights into the Palestinian mindset, but I have a couple of quibbles with some of your phrasing.
1. Until Arafat redefined it, the "nakhba" was understood to mean, not anything that Israel had done to the Arabs of Palestine, but rather the Arab humiliation that they had not been able to destroy the Jews, whom they had regarded as the weakest of all people. Arab Muslim pride had long been based on the military prowess that had led them to conquer a large portion of the globe.
2. There is no such place as "East Jerusalem." What Jordan controlled was the eastern portion of Jerusalem, most accurately referred to as "eastern Jerusalem." The idea that it is a separate place, rather than a portion of the whole, is propaganda.