“Gaza more resembles 1930s Germany, where an extremist party won elections, with the support of most of the people, and quickly unified the military and civil government into one entity.”
There is a big difference that you are not acknowledging. The socio-theological worldview of post world-war II Germany is quite a bit different than that of the Islamo-Arab world. Their worldviews differ greatly on guilt and sin. The tradition of an understanding of sin made the German people realize that they had allowed their hatred to overrule their grace and they had sinned greatly. In the Islamic world “infidels” are appropriate recipients of divine just retribution and no “guilt” is necessary or even allowed. Please acknowledge that east-west differences in worldview make many calls to “rationality” moot.
I don't really believe in collective punishment. At least not in this case. Punishment implies the possibility of repair. When a murderer is put to death it's punishment because the idea is that the suffering has a corrective function both for the one put to death and the rest of a society that is capable of learning the lesson. There is no point in punishing the Gazans. Their leaders and their enablers need the punishment. All we can do with the Gazans is to relocate them to a place where they can get a new start. In the meantime, we must do everything that we can to stop them from killing us. If that involves killing them then that is their choice. They can just as easily lay down their weapons and surrender. They can return our hostages. The can hand over their leaders. They can pay reparations.
Yes, deportation is the only way to rid Gaza of this cancer. But it will take a miracle from G-d to get other countries (preferably non-Western countries) to take them. Or an "act of G-d", like an earthquake or tsunami to destroy them. I wonder if all those tunnels have weakened the ground??
Gaza is a no-win scenario for Israel. The international community will not be willing or able to re-educate/re-habilitate Jew-hating Gazans and Israel is certainly not the one to do it! Even if every last Hamas terrorist and terrorist weapon is eliminated from Gaza, the cancer there remains. New terrorists will spring up. Only G-d has the solution and I pray daily that He comes up with one quickly to cure the cancer for good.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻Yours is a better version —more erudite & complete —of what I have written about Gaza several tines since 10/7/23.
When I answered my own questions about about why we saw no popular uprising by Gazans against Hamas both before and after 10/7/23 as compared with the vast Israeli demonstrations against Netanyahu, I came to the conclusions that Jew-Hatred was more likely the answer and that there was not enough Hamas-hatred just as there had never been enough PLO-hatred.
Some readers of my very less sophisticated comments than your Stack today have suggested, in effect as you have addressed a bit also, a version of “Stockholm Syndrome”. I am sure there’s a bit, but far more teaching and active tolerance of Jew-Hatred generation after generation. (Let’s also not forget the WW2 Arab Grand Mufti-support & leadership in favor of the Nazis.]
My heart breaks for the human suffering of any innocent [and even non-innocent] Palestinians / non-Hamas supporters, and any innocent children—but in the Intifadas there were many non-innocent children—but if the Gazans pre-10/7/23 supported & tolerated the tunnel building and especially under hospitals and homes and any schools and did not rise up, then they are as complicit as Germans ignoring the concentration camps, gas chambers, and trains bringing Jews and others to slaughter.
If post-10/7/23 Gazans still did not & do not rise up and form resistance [to Hamas] movements, then they are not “innocent” but complicit and their terrible human suffering is part of the war they contributed to /still contribute to in one form or other.
However, I DETEST and CONDEMN any IDF and Israeli active, deliberate and/or criminally negligent flouting and violations of the international rules of war and even Israeli war criminals should face prosecution.
But it is also essential that all other war criminals since 10/7/23, including Gazans and Hamas and any other associated terrorists & war criminals, also face charges and justice. In the pro-Palestinian demonstrations around the world I am not hearing much cry for punishing non-Jewish war criminals.
Any not crying out for across-the-board prosecution of all war criminals are therefore more Jew-Haters than anything else.
If there is a collective Gazan wish for searching their souls and consciences in favor of eradicating Jew-Hatred then in generations they can be as peace-loving and contrite as many Germans & Japanese today and then Gazans, too, can have better lives.
Is there any compelling evidence of the IDF flouting international law? I’m not aware of anything. Israel is under a magnifying glass unlike anything I’ve ever seen for a sovereign country fighting back after a military invasion. Believe me, nothing Israel does will ever be regarded as correct by the Islamists for sure, nor their new Western Neo-Marxist BFFs. Israel will never get a fair trial in the court of manipulated public opinion. Israel has nothing to apologize for. They are far more humane than any other country I can imagine responding to a similar massacre of innocents.
This line of thinking has very real practical weight on the ground right now, as Israel prepares to address Rafah. Very unlikely IDF will be comfortable proceeding unless it has a plan to sift any "innocents" from the Hamas soldiers/joy-riders/fervent supporters/passive acquiesces, where acquiescence itself would be criminal under the post-Shoah Nuremberg Principles and Genocide Convention (admittedly applicable to States--non-state organizations weren't a thing yet). As an international lawyer familiar with the relevant law (nuclear context, below), I wouldn't opine on "collective punishment", but it may be difficult to identify pure innocents once they're old enough to have entered the UNRWA indoctrination classes.
At the very least, when this is all over, any "day after" Palestinian administrative entity must include educational de-radicalization and reform (as in Germany, Japan) as a paramount responsibility, certainly more important than policing and trash collection.
Very interesting. Suppose Hamas were eradicated; here's my five-step program for "after." 1) The international community rebuilds Gaza - that IS their state until further notice. 2) Governance of the state is overseen by Arab ally countries (Egypt / Jordan / Saudi Arabia / Emeratis. 3) All terrorists in Israeli prisons should be sent to Saudi's de-radicalization program. (Maybe no prisoners will mean no future hostages). 4) Some sort of de-radicalization / re-education program needs to be devised and run by the Saudis IN GAZA. 5) All tunnels are destroyed; nothing goes in to Gaza that can be used for missiles, munitions, etc. No funds or aid allowed in from hostile countries (Qatar, Syria, Iran).
1) Israel /US MUST have some role: If you were Israel with anti-semitic Gaza on your border you would want a role and the other countries on “the panel or commission” may need rejiggering with additions or subtractions
2) Gaza’s leader MUST be chosen by consensus among Gaza and every country participating jn setting up the “new Gaza”. (Abbas alway weak if not corrupt; Gazans also need excellent and good faith negotiators. Gazans were never serious about wanting their own country if they won’t renounce Jew Hatred.
And they’d have to agree not to allow terrorists especially if they want $ from other countries.
I’d model some of the post WW2 structures for Japan, but am leery about copying what had been set up for Germany lest there be another “Berlin Wall /East Germany-type situation with a US & Israeli enemy on Israel’s border.
3) Gazans need de-radicalizing*, yes, BUT not by Saudis that murdered and dismembered Kashogghi, among other outrageous heinous crimes.
*Gazans failed to stand up to Hamas EVER. Immaterial that they originally voted for Hamas.; they allowed Hamas to rule ever since and never demanded new elections. They acquiesced to ANYTHZiNG Hamas did /does. Gazans are NOT sweet & innocent angels.They also failed to stand up to PLO. They failed to object to their kids being taught Jew hatred and to Jew Hatred being in PLO & Hamas charters. They failed to criticize Hamas in general or in their invading a sovereign country, Israel after 10/7/23.
4)Who are you kidding forcing Israel to release prisoners especially if Israel has no say-so in setting up /overseeing a “New Hamas”? Undoubtedly the old Hamas or any new Hamas or Hamas-like Gazan group will simply invade Israel again or at least take hostages anyway.
5) Gazans /Hamas MUST renounce anti-semitism /and agree Israel has a right to exist.
Resorting to collective punishment would be grossly unethical, and it should not be entertained. I’d argue that, gratifyingly, such a practice is not reflective of the situation at hand. To maintain the moral high ground, it's crucial to carefully evaluate the foreseeable side effects of any operation, particularly the kind of harm that may or may not be justified. I also believe that the perspective on rebuilding Gaza after the war differs between Germany and the situation at hand. Hamas are Nazis with the certainty of Paradise, exhibiting a disregard for human life reminiscent of nihilistic death cults. This nihilism stems directly from doctrines surrounding martyrdom and jihad, which are explicitly religious. Such pervasive ideology will undoubtedly complicate any efforts towards rebuilding.
“But many polls since October 7th suggest that a healthy majority of Palestinians are in favor of the Hamas-led massacres on October 7th, which is unsurprising. Palestinians for decades have been led by terrorists (e.g. Yasser Arafat) and terror organizations (e.g. the Palestine Liberation Organization).”
Edit:
But many polls in Israel since October 7th show more than 60% of Israelis think the IDF is not bombing Gaza enough, which is unsurprising. Only 2% of Israelis think the IDF has gone too far. Israel for decades has been led by terrorists (e.g. Menachim Begun, Golda Meir, Natanyahu) and terror organizations (e.g. Ergun, Haganah, etc). After 1948 the same terrorists became leaders in Israel’s government.
In 1946 Zionist terrorists bombed the King David Hotel, which was the headquarters of the Brits, killing 91.
In 1967 Israel (a great “friend”) attacked the USS Liberty killing 34 American servicemen.
Israel claims to be the only democracy in the middle east. So by your insane logic, “collective punishment is probably what is needed.” To be clear I do not share this genocidal sentiment. Children are innocent. Period.
Leave it to a Zionist to rewrite history and play the perennial victim. And justify a genocide. The world is watching and it will *never* forgive this mass slaughter of children. It’s not a matter of if, but when.
There is a big difference that you are not acknowledging. The socio-theological worldview of post world-war II Germany is quite a bit different than that of the Islamo-Arab world. Their worldviews differ greatly on guilt and sin. The tradition of an understanding of sin made the German people realize that they had allowed their hatred to overrule their grace and they had sinned greatly. In the Islamic world “infidels” are appropriate recipients of divine just retribution and no “guilt” is necessary or even allowed. Please acknowledge that east-west differences in worldview make many calls to “rationality” moot.
I don't really believe in collective punishment. At least not in this case. Punishment implies the possibility of repair. When a murderer is put to death it's punishment because the idea is that the suffering has a corrective function both for the one put to death and the rest of a society that is capable of learning the lesson. There is no point in punishing the Gazans. Their leaders and their enablers need the punishment. All we can do with the Gazans is to relocate them to a place where they can get a new start. In the meantime, we must do everything that we can to stop them from killing us. If that involves killing them then that is their choice. They can just as easily lay down their weapons and surrender. They can return our hostages. The can hand over their leaders. They can pay reparations.
Yes, deportation is the only way to rid Gaza of this cancer. But it will take a miracle from G-d to get other countries (preferably non-Western countries) to take them. Or an "act of G-d", like an earthquake or tsunami to destroy them. I wonder if all those tunnels have weakened the ground??
No hope for those hostage
And about gazaoui after oct 7 they all dance on streets
Like now in iran after those drones
Ans missile send to israel
Well again they all dance
They all hate jews and this from begining of the world
What i do not understand is those protestors most of them do not understand what they protest
For. They should protest again hamas
But no one protest about all the killing made buy russia to those real innocent people
They did not kill any one
And they are being kill
Please the world protest for those real innocent people
Gaza is a no-win scenario for Israel. The international community will not be willing or able to re-educate/re-habilitate Jew-hating Gazans and Israel is certainly not the one to do it! Even if every last Hamas terrorist and terrorist weapon is eliminated from Gaza, the cancer there remains. New terrorists will spring up. Only G-d has the solution and I pray daily that He comes up with one quickly to cure the cancer for good.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻Yours is a better version —more erudite & complete —of what I have written about Gaza several tines since 10/7/23.
When I answered my own questions about about why we saw no popular uprising by Gazans against Hamas both before and after 10/7/23 as compared with the vast Israeli demonstrations against Netanyahu, I came to the conclusions that Jew-Hatred was more likely the answer and that there was not enough Hamas-hatred just as there had never been enough PLO-hatred.
Some readers of my very less sophisticated comments than your Stack today have suggested, in effect as you have addressed a bit also, a version of “Stockholm Syndrome”. I am sure there’s a bit, but far more teaching and active tolerance of Jew-Hatred generation after generation. (Let’s also not forget the WW2 Arab Grand Mufti-support & leadership in favor of the Nazis.]
My heart breaks for the human suffering of any innocent [and even non-innocent] Palestinians / non-Hamas supporters, and any innocent children—but in the Intifadas there were many non-innocent children—but if the Gazans pre-10/7/23 supported & tolerated the tunnel building and especially under hospitals and homes and any schools and did not rise up, then they are as complicit as Germans ignoring the concentration camps, gas chambers, and trains bringing Jews and others to slaughter.
If post-10/7/23 Gazans still did not & do not rise up and form resistance [to Hamas] movements, then they are not “innocent” but complicit and their terrible human suffering is part of the war they contributed to /still contribute to in one form or other.
However, I DETEST and CONDEMN any IDF and Israeli active, deliberate and/or criminally negligent flouting and violations of the international rules of war and even Israeli war criminals should face prosecution.
But it is also essential that all other war criminals since 10/7/23, including Gazans and Hamas and any other associated terrorists & war criminals, also face charges and justice. In the pro-Palestinian demonstrations around the world I am not hearing much cry for punishing non-Jewish war criminals.
Any not crying out for across-the-board prosecution of all war criminals are therefore more Jew-Haters than anything else.
If there is a collective Gazan wish for searching their souls and consciences in favor of eradicating Jew-Hatred then in generations they can be as peace-loving and contrite as many Germans & Japanese today and then Gazans, too, can have better lives.
Is there any compelling evidence of the IDF flouting international law? I’m not aware of anything. Israel is under a magnifying glass unlike anything I’ve ever seen for a sovereign country fighting back after a military invasion. Believe me, nothing Israel does will ever be regarded as correct by the Islamists for sure, nor their new Western Neo-Marxist BFFs. Israel will never get a fair trial in the court of manipulated public opinion. Israel has nothing to apologize for. They are far more humane than any other country I can imagine responding to a similar massacre of innocents.
This line of thinking has very real practical weight on the ground right now, as Israel prepares to address Rafah. Very unlikely IDF will be comfortable proceeding unless it has a plan to sift any "innocents" from the Hamas soldiers/joy-riders/fervent supporters/passive acquiesces, where acquiescence itself would be criminal under the post-Shoah Nuremberg Principles and Genocide Convention (admittedly applicable to States--non-state organizations weren't a thing yet). As an international lawyer familiar with the relevant law (nuclear context, below), I wouldn't opine on "collective punishment", but it may be difficult to identify pure innocents once they're old enough to have entered the UNRWA indoctrination classes.
At the very least, when this is all over, any "day after" Palestinian administrative entity must include educational de-radicalization and reform (as in Germany, Japan) as a paramount responsibility, certainly more important than policing and trash collection.
https://lawjournal.mcgill.ca/article/international-law-of-armed-conflict-on-light-of-contemporary-deterrence-strategies-empty-promise-or-meaningful-restraint-the/
The UN is a failed organization. It is a malign influence in Gaza and around the world.
Very interesting. Suppose Hamas were eradicated; here's my five-step program for "after." 1) The international community rebuilds Gaza - that IS their state until further notice. 2) Governance of the state is overseen by Arab ally countries (Egypt / Jordan / Saudi Arabia / Emeratis. 3) All terrorists in Israeli prisons should be sent to Saudi's de-radicalization program. (Maybe no prisoners will mean no future hostages). 4) Some sort of de-radicalization / re-education program needs to be devised and run by the Saudis IN GAZA. 5) All tunnels are destroyed; nothing goes in to Gaza that can be used for missiles, munitions, etc. No funds or aid allowed in from hostile countries (Qatar, Syria, Iran).
1) Israel /US MUST have some role: If you were Israel with anti-semitic Gaza on your border you would want a role and the other countries on “the panel or commission” may need rejiggering with additions or subtractions
2) Gaza’s leader MUST be chosen by consensus among Gaza and every country participating jn setting up the “new Gaza”. (Abbas alway weak if not corrupt; Gazans also need excellent and good faith negotiators. Gazans were never serious about wanting their own country if they won’t renounce Jew Hatred.
And they’d have to agree not to allow terrorists especially if they want $ from other countries.
I’d model some of the post WW2 structures for Japan, but am leery about copying what had been set up for Germany lest there be another “Berlin Wall /East Germany-type situation with a US & Israeli enemy on Israel’s border.
3) Gazans need de-radicalizing*, yes, BUT not by Saudis that murdered and dismembered Kashogghi, among other outrageous heinous crimes.
*Gazans failed to stand up to Hamas EVER. Immaterial that they originally voted for Hamas.; they allowed Hamas to rule ever since and never demanded new elections. They acquiesced to ANYTHZiNG Hamas did /does. Gazans are NOT sweet & innocent angels.They also failed to stand up to PLO. They failed to object to their kids being taught Jew hatred and to Jew Hatred being in PLO & Hamas charters. They failed to criticize Hamas in general or in their invading a sovereign country, Israel after 10/7/23.
4)Who are you kidding forcing Israel to release prisoners especially if Israel has no say-so in setting up /overseeing a “New Hamas”? Undoubtedly the old Hamas or any new Hamas or Hamas-like Gazan group will simply invade Israel again or at least take hostages anyway.
5) Gazans /Hamas MUST renounce anti-semitism /and agree Israel has a right to exist.
I’ll stop for now.
Stop the bullshit
This is a Muslim religious war
World wide
Israel is simply a diversion of what is happening.
The religion is convert or kill
How do you create peace since they want converts?
It is not possible until all 2 billion Muslims have been killed.
If this disturbs your sensibilities
But...last I checked as a Jew our religion says if someone wants to kill you then u can kill them.
Resorting to collective punishment would be grossly unethical, and it should not be entertained. I’d argue that, gratifyingly, such a practice is not reflective of the situation at hand. To maintain the moral high ground, it's crucial to carefully evaluate the foreseeable side effects of any operation, particularly the kind of harm that may or may not be justified. I also believe that the perspective on rebuilding Gaza after the war differs between Germany and the situation at hand. Hamas are Nazis with the certainty of Paradise, exhibiting a disregard for human life reminiscent of nihilistic death cults. This nihilism stems directly from doctrines surrounding martyrdom and jihad, which are explicitly religious. Such pervasive ideology will undoubtedly complicate any efforts towards rebuilding.
Well said!
“But many polls since October 7th suggest that a healthy majority of Palestinians are in favor of the Hamas-led massacres on October 7th, which is unsurprising. Palestinians for decades have been led by terrorists (e.g. Yasser Arafat) and terror organizations (e.g. the Palestine Liberation Organization).”
Edit:
But many polls in Israel since October 7th show more than 60% of Israelis think the IDF is not bombing Gaza enough, which is unsurprising. Only 2% of Israelis think the IDF has gone too far. Israel for decades has been led by terrorists (e.g. Menachim Begun, Golda Meir, Natanyahu) and terror organizations (e.g. Ergun, Haganah, etc). After 1948 the same terrorists became leaders in Israel’s government.
In 1946 Zionist terrorists bombed the King David Hotel, which was the headquarters of the Brits, killing 91.
In 1967 Israel (a great “friend”) attacked the USS Liberty killing 34 American servicemen.
Israel claims to be the only democracy in the middle east. So by your insane logic, “collective punishment is probably what is needed.” To be clear I do not share this genocidal sentiment. Children are innocent. Period.
Leave it to a Zionist to rewrite history and play the perennial victim. And justify a genocide. The world is watching and it will *never* forgive this mass slaughter of children. It’s not a matter of if, but when.
Seems optimistic and ignores the nature of Islam as both a religious and society-government-organizing movement.
Sorry for typos I did not see before: no way to edit in my app after I posted.